[491326]

I honestly have no idea. It seems like Leo II is immensely popular and EA have a hard time keeping up with demand. It took quite a long time with Lionheart as well, if I remember correctly.

dang I'm thinking of getting one this summer. also thinking of the lotoo paw gold touch, but the price is....

 

[KuroKitsu]

and have mentally prepared myself for the withdrawal symptoms that will come when I can't get my Leo II fix for a few weeks

I feel you there, I swapped out my Leo II for a Tri-Copper on Zeus after someone asked me about cable pairings with the Andros. Fell in love with it all over again, at the same time, theres this ache for the midrange clarity and treble sparkle.

dang I'm thinking of getting one this summer. also thinking of the lotoo paw gold touch, but the price is....

Email Andrew @ Musicteck to see if they have stock. I got mine from him after they sold out of the Janus D during BF. Figured it I was willing to throw $1k+ CAD at a Palladium garrote, I might as well satisfy myself with the more ergononic one. Btw they just sent out an email for the LPTG at a "heavy" discount if you are willing to review it, not sure if thats availble to the general public though.

 

[jeffhawke]

With your post, I can definitely see semblances of a point, but there are far too many variables at play. We’re discussing what constitues a reference IEM with the only variable being the IEM. What you’re positing here has two variables: The engineer (whether it be your soundman or the band members themselves) and room acoustics. Of the two, which is equivalent to the IEM? If your hypothesis is each person will have their own individual sense of balance and it’s unlikely for two people to match exactly in that regard - a hypothesis I’d highly agree with, by the way - shouldn’t you take acoustics out of the question entirely? On the other hand, if your hypothesis is that balance when mixing cannot depend on one sole reference point (which, I’d also highly agree with), shouldn’t the engineer be a constant? It’s unwise to incorporate both, lest you muddle your own point.

The acoustical problem - where the balance of the mix is different depending on where you’re standing relative to the speakers - I think is really divorced from what we’re talking about here. That’s unless the argument is, “An IEM that sounds balanced with one eartip doesn’t with another,” or, “A headphone’s balance shifts depending on how you position it on your head.” Then yes, this comparison would apply. But, what we’re discussing is entirely different.

Nevertheless, I’ll give you my take on the matter. In my opinion, this is the fault of either the engineer or the venue. I work three-days-a-week as a front-of-house engineer (i.e. I determine what the congregation/audience hears) in a large church with a capacity of just under 3000 seats. Because of the size of the venue, we split the audio between two speaker arrays: A pair each of wide and narrow speakers covering the first two-thirds of the hall, and another pair of narrow speakers covering the last third. Between the two arrays is a Symetrix delay module to account for the distance between them. When the speakers are raw, they will all certainly sound different depending on where you sit. How I cope with that as an engineer is I play a song through them all and EQ the speakers beforehand. I walk around whilst I EQ until they all sound at least tonally similar. Once that’s done, I have the band play and create two stereo mixes: One for the front array and another for the rear array. Then, whatever instruments are more/less audible in one array, I’ll compensate through the other’s mix. So, if the bass and piano are louder in the rear array - because their narrow nature offers a more direct, concentrated sound - I’ll add more piano and bass to the mix I’m sending to the front array. It’s definitely a solvable problem - either the soundman simply isn’t capable or won’t take the time to do it, or the venue isn’t providing him/her the resources to do so. Again, this matter is quite distantly divorced from what we’ve been discussing, but I’m sure some of you may find this interesting; even useful.

Now, let’s get to the part that pertains most to the issue at hand: Between two conflicting engineers (i.e. your soundman and the band members) can either of the two be considered more of an objective reference than the other? Well, that’s easy - the answer is clearly no. Again, each person will have their own individual sense of balance, and it’s unlikely for two people to match exactly in that regard. But by that same token, as you’ve exemplified with your sound man, it’s also impossible for two people to produce, mix and master exactly the same - whether it be in clarity, tone, instrumental balance, imaging, etc. One track and another will never sound the same, and will never provide similar experiences. So, if we go from there and apply it to IEMs: Is it possible for a reference IEM - a discerning, transparent IEM - to play two tracks and display the same levels of clarity, stage width, body, etc.? The answer - by our logic - should be no. But alas, when I listen to different tracks through the Lime Ears Model X, or the Vision Ears VE8, or the 64Audio A18t, I always come out thinking, “Yeah, that track sounds good.” I get a great listening experience, but I always get the same experience. This isn’t the case when I listen to the Empire Ears Phantom, or the JHAudio Layla, or the HUM Dolores, or the MrSpeakers Ether 2. This is why I can call them tonally transparent, while I wouldn’t with the others. When you pair that with excellent technical performance, you have yourselves a reference-grade IEM.

So, TL;DR:

- Can you mix one set of speakers to sound the same throughout a large venue? No.

- Can you mix multiple arrays of speakers to sound agreeable throughout a large venue? Yes.

- Is there such a thing as an objectively correct mix? No.

- Is there such a thing as an objectively reference-grade IEM? Yes.

- How do we determine a reference-grade IEM? By listening to several tracks through it and determining whether or not it’s able to adapt and discern based on what it’s being fed.

- If I listen to two tracks from the same mastered album and notice differences in tone, EQ, imaging, forwardness, etc., can I call the IEM I’m listening to tonally transparent? Yes.

- Is that enough to consider that IEM reference-grade? No, you need high technical performance too (i.e. background blackness, stage stability, coherence, definition, etc.).

- If my IEM makes every kind of music sound good, can I consider it wholly reference-grade in both detail and tone? Most likely, no.

- Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not.

- Can I enjoy an IEM that’s not wholly reference-grade? Brother, you’re immensely more likely to.

Excellent writeup and very interesting insights Daniel! We can assume that you consider the Phantom, Layla, the Dolores and the Ether2 as "Reference", right? Are there any other headphones/iems that you would rate as "tonally transparent", in the way that you are describing it? I have a pair of Spirit Torino Twin Pulse headphones, and they behave exactly the way you are describing. Of course, being like that they are very unforgiving with not-so-good recordings. Also, I'm curious to know which speakers you are using in the church. I listened (through my Twin Pulse) to a binaural recording of gregorian chants taken inside a medieval church in Italy, and if I closed my eyes for a while it felt like being right there among the chanting monks, an almost trance-like experience. That's what a good recording played through a good set of transducers does to me...

 

[davidcotton]

Great. Got my ears checked out at the doctors whilst I was there for something else and it turns out one ear is blocked, and the other partially so no impressions for me for a while. Got an appointment at the end of the month to have them done so it basically means no iems for me for about 3 weeks As I use them to block noise out at work it's going to be a tough 3 weeks. Just curious though. My ears seem to have a regular build up of wax (seem to need a clean out every six months or so) and was wondering what could be aggravating it? Would it be trying to use iems and not getting a good seal, or would it be using ciems (I know @Wyville has had issues with ciems in the past for example). I'd be happy with universals if they fit, but the right is a pain in the ass. Small is too small and medium up hurts after awhile.

Anyone got any good recommendations for a decent pair of over (not on)headphones that are glasses friendly and not cost the earth?

Thanks

 

[Wyville]

Great. Got my ears checked out at the doctors whilst I was there for something else and it turns out one ear is blocked, and the other partially so no impressions for me for a while. Got an appointment at the end of the month to have them done so it basically means no iems for me for about 3 weeks As I use them to block noise out at work it's going to be a tough 3 weeks. Just curious though. My ears seem to have a regular build up of wax (seem to need a clean out every six months or so) and was wondering what could be aggravating it? Would it be trying to use iems and not getting a good seal, or would it be using ciems (I know @Wyville has had issues with ciems in the past for example). I'd be happy with universals if they fit, but the right is a pain in the ass. Small is too small and medium up hurts after awhile.

Anyone got any good recommendations for a decent pair of over (not on)headphones that are glasses friendly and not cost the earth?

Thanks

Sorry to hear it mate. Maybe you can check out 'Tornado' tips. I have been using them with the Trinity and they don't go as deep, yet maintain a good seal because of the structural support. Rhapsodio also includes similar tips with their universals. I want to see if can get some more for myself.

The problems with my CIEMs, I am sure, were to do with grinding my teeth while wearing the CIEMs for very long listening sessions. (I just got an earful from my dentist and need to get a custom mouth guard made.) I now know that if I go the CIEM route again, I need to stay aware of that and consciously relax my jaw while wearing them.

 

[davidcotton]

Thanks, any ideas where to order those tips? My problem with universals is the right ear bend I think. Just doesn't go in deep enough to seal properly. Left is pretty much in and done.

 

[Wyville]

Thanks, any ideas where to order those tips? My problem with universals is the right ear bend I think. Just doesn't go in deep enough to seal properly. Left is pretty much in and done.

I think these might be the right ones at Amazon UK.

 

[EagleWings]

Great. Got my ears checked out at the doctors whilst I was there for something else and it turns out one ear is blocked, and the other partially so no impressions for me for a while. Got an appointment at the end of the month to have them done so it basically means no iems for me for about 3 weeks As I use them to block noise out at work it's going to be a tough 3 weeks. Just curious though. My ears seem to have a regular build up of wax (seem to need a clean out every six months or so) and was wondering what could be aggravating it? Would it be trying to use iems and not getting a good seal, or would it be using ciems (I know @Wyville has had issues with ciems in the past for example). I'd be happy with universals if they fit, but the right is a pain in the ass. Small is too small and medium up hurts after awhile.

Anyone got any good recommendations for a decent pair of over (not on)headphones that are glasses friendly and not cost the earth?

Thanks

HD650 (couple of friends who wear glasses use it with no trouble) plus a nice tube amp.

 

[Wyville]

HD650 (couple of friends who wear glasses use it with no trouble) plus a nice tube amp.

Oh no, I was just forgetting about the HD650 and now I am reminded again that those are really really interesting and that I live in a quiet place where I can actually use open-backs without sirens, neighbours and airplanes ruining it.

 

[davidcotton]

I think these might be the right ones at Amazon UK.

Thanks, do they fit the custom art universals ok?

 

[davidcotton]

HD650 (couple of friends who wear glasses use it with no trouble) plus a nice tube amp.

Sorry should have said portable as I use them at work to block noise out, so sadly open back are out.

 

[noplsestar]

Sorry should have said portable as I use them at work to block noise out, so sadly open back are out.

Oppo PM3s are not that expensive and have quite good sound quality.

 

[Wyville]

Thanks, do they fit the custom art universals ok?

Gave it a quick try with the ones I have from Rhapsodio (the ones from Jomo are packed for sending) and that seems to work just fine.

 

[491326]

what daps have the 4.4mm pentaconn? I feel like a majority of them are really expensive options

 

[Joe Tan]

what daps have the 4.4mm pentaconn? I feel like a majority of them are really expensive options

Sony Zx300 should be lowest price that has 4.4mm balanced out i guess.

Ps also can look at fiio X7ii with the 4.4mm module.

But Sq i prefer the Sony , though i dont have a zx300, heard its good and not far from Wm1x sound sig.