I picked up an M17 from Amazon, should have it Tuesday. Ill be honest, daps this size don’t interest me at the moment but let’s see what the hype is about.
flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
davidmolliere
Headphoneus Supremus
Eager to see what you think about it
And D8000 Pro
tawmizzzz
1000+ Head-Fier
Love my iDSD Pro Signature, easily drives LCD5 with excellent range and dynamics.
The M17 sounds interesting and definitely would have bought now if not for the Pro signature, since I’m tied to my desk at home for work anyways and don’t need multiple desktop units.
I have a stealth coming in soon to demo. I’m gonna guess the iDSD Pro Signature might struggle driving it if Stealth is really at susvara levels
Another reason why I respect LCD5-driving from a portable L&P W2 still works and sounds better than almost any TOTL IEM + DAP I’ve heard, albeit some upper-mid exaggeration.
Yeah, I was surprised at how easy the LCD5 is to drive. The LCD5 wasn't for me, but it sounded best when driven from my DX300. It's really comfortable too.
Another great headphone I had the pleasure to own...And D8000 Pro
davidmolliere
Headphoneus Supremus
I'll probably go that route eventually
I love iFi Audio products and iDSD is the most compelling desktop iem I'd purchase
Susvara out of the 65 pounds and 2x15W Viva Egoista 845 is one of the most moving audition I have had, such a natural and lively sounding headphone ouf of that legendary tube amp, also a very fond memory of a wonderful time shared with my friend @popof94 who unfortunately passed away since thenI have a stealth coming in soon to demo. I’m gonna guess the iDSD Pro Signature might struggle driving it if Stealth is really at susvara levels
Another reason why I respect LCD5-driving from a portable L&P W2 still works and sounds better than almost any TOTL IEM + DAP I’ve heard, albeit some upper-mid exaggeration.
I don't think Stealth is as hard to drive as Susvara though, it's 23ohm @ 86dB vs 60ohm @ 83dB
But yeah will it scale with full blown desktop, probably!
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tgx78
Member of the Trade: tgxear
My Stealth sounded..
on Shanling M8 turbo gain.
So so on ifi Diablo turbo gain.
Ok on THX 789 turbo gain (dynamics finally showed up here).
Good on Burson Soloist 3x power amp mode with supercharger.
Best on a demo Burson Soloist GT.
Volume is no problem even on M8 but man it sounds so flat, lifeless, boring with anemic bass without proper current going through that magnetic arrays.
on Shanling M8 turbo gain.So so on ifi Diablo turbo gain.
Ok on THX 789 turbo gain (dynamics finally showed up here).
Good on Burson Soloist 3x power amp mode with supercharger.
Best on a demo Burson Soloist GT.
Volume is no problem even on M8 but man it sounds so flat, lifeless, boring with anemic bass without proper current going through that magnetic arrays.
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Progisus
Headphoneus Supremus
The Focal Utopia drives very well with most daps. My Kann Alpha drives it as well as my TT2.
tawmizzzz
1000+ Head-Fier
Very sorry to hear, my condolences. The username rings a bell-I believe I may have had some nice chats with him during my Rhapsodio days late 2020.Susvara out of the 65 pounds and 2x15W Viva Egoista 845 is one of the most moving audition I have had, such a natural and lively sounding headphone ouf of that legendary tube amp, also a very fond memory of a wonderful time shared with my friend @popof94 who unfortunately passed away since then
I hope to try a fully-powered Susvara one day, but just don't have the desktop, desk-space (lol, 65 lbs), willpower and arguably cash to go down the nuclear powerplant route
.
davidmolliere
Headphoneus Supremus
Yeah we all felt at loss in the french community... he was a great person and held so many meetups also invited me and @lafeuill at memorable concerts at La Philharmonie de Paris concert hall... he was passionate about music, a "bon vivant" and fun guy too! Yes you're right he enjoyed the Infinity mk2 back then. Sure the setup requires some room for sure and serious cash too.Very sorry to hear, my condolences. The username rings a bell-I believe I may have had some nice chats with him during my Rhapsodio days late 2020.
I hope to try a fully-powered Susvara one day, but just don't have the desktop, desk-space (lol, 65 lbs), willpower and arguably cash to go down the nuclear powerplant route
Tonight I am having a blast with Mark Murphy "Midnight Mood", having a thought for the jazz lover he was!
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Popof could fit his Infinity MK2 just as well as his IER-Z1R flush in the ear, just like ciems. Big guy, he was. He is missed.
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tawmizzzz
1000+ Head-Fier
Battle of the Birds: Vision Ears PHöNIX versus Oriolus Traillii JP
Let me preface this aerial fight with that I went into buying PHöNIX with hopes that it could replace Traillii for me. I am approaching my 1-year anniversary with my custom Blackbird, which is easily my longest commitment to any IEM. From impressions and reviews I've read, as well as my experience with the ERLKöNIG, I figured PHöNIX would provide the rich, emotional mid-range for vocals and instruments with world-class technicalities and tuning.
Does it? Mostly. Does the Firebird replace the Blackbird for me? Sadly, no.
Ergonomics, Synergy, and Packaging:
Two of my favorite tangible things about the Traillii has been:
1. It's superb fit
2. How consistently it sounds good across various DAPs/DACs/cables/file sources
I cannot say the same for PHöNIX. I had some fit issues with ERLKöNIG, but I thought it was the weight and figured PHöNIX would suffice better. But only one set of tips kept the IEM glued to my ears, and that was the trusty ol' Xelestecs. PHöNIX simply does not deem my earholes as an ideal nesting place
.
Similar to ERLKöNIG, PHöNIX is more sensitive than Traillii on DAP synergies. It slightly hisses from my SP2000, iDSD Pro Signature, and to an extent, the L&P W2. It is not particularly noticeable but something worth noting. I also genuinely don't think the SP2000 is an ideal synergy for the PHöNIX (yet, amazing for the Blackbird), something I believe @Damz87 also noticed. Yet, for the majority of these impressions, I directly A/B'd the two IEMs on a mix of SP2000 and iFi iDSD Pro Signature (Solid State).
PHöNIX easily wins for general build, with a beautiful sapphire glass exterior and unique back-shell. It also has a much more elegant unpacking experience-but it's not difficult to beat Traillii's infamous cardboard box.
On the flipside, Blackbird comes with a better cable [PWA 1960 4wire], one that even elevates PHöNIX a notch or two versus its' stock cable.
Winner: Blackbird
Which Bird Sings Better?
Bass: In direct A/B, Blackbird's bass performance wins out for me. They are both top of their class when it comes to balanced-armature bass, providing excellent detail, speed and impact. But ultimately, the Blackbird's subbass emphasis is more tastefully done because it provides that additional detraction from the occasional BA-timbre midbass that ALL BA's will suffer from to some extent. (E.g., plasticky, lack of air movement). There is a noticeable subbass rolloff on PHöNIX, with an emphasis on midbass punch (which is no surprise given its' Erlky DNA).
PHöNIX's bass is clean and actually tighter than Blackbird. It provides solid punch but I did notice "pillow-y" BA timbre on tracks such as in Shahmen's "Mark (Emr3yugal Remix). Blackbird, on the hands, extends deeper into the frequencies with a more "DD-like" slam. Of course, neither will slam as authentically as an elite DD [EVO] or even Planar [LCD5], but still perform at the top of their class.
Winner: Blackbird
Mids: ERLKöNIG is in my top 3 for best mids of all time...not sure if I can say the same for PHöNIX. The best analogy I can use is the PHöNIX is to ERLKöNIG much like the LXSE is to the LX. Both PHöNIX and LXSE provide additional treble and air to their OG counterparts, which unfortunately affects the texture and warmth that I personally found special on the OGs.
Don't get me wrong-vocals sound excellent. PHöNIX adopts Erlky's DNA with more forward mids than Traillii, which will better suit those who found Traillii too laid-back. But I found Blackbird to have more texture and warmth which made instruments and vocals sound more organic than on PHöNIX. It's almost as if the mids on PHöNIX are clearly present, but glossed-over with a layer of air which just made it tougher for me to get engaged.
There is no winner here-it'll come down to preferences. If you want your vocals a little pushed back in the mix but with excellent microdetail and hint of warmth, go Traillii. If you want your mids more forward with strong body but on the brighter side, go PHöNIX.
Winner: Depends. [Blackbird for me though]
Treble: I have a sensitivity to poorly done and/or excessive lower treble, so it's no surprise that Blackbird's lower-treble dip strongly resonates with me. Yet in overall treble quantity, PHöNIX easily wins. There is more detail and air than on Bird, and I imagine this will suffice better for genres that require more upper-harmonics. Despite the treble quantity on PHöNIX, it is very smooth and eloquent. Yet, I still found Blackbird providing more sparkle, probably because it is easily for the sparkle to present itself in the midst of a darker lower-treble.
Although I personally prefer Blackbird's treble, I think I can admit that PHöNIX generally has the better overall treble balance- which makes it even more impressive given it uses BAs instead of electrostats.
Winner: PHöNIX
Soundstage/Technicalities: I'll keep this one brief. Blackbird wins in soundstage width and slightly depth, PHöNIX easily takes soundstage height. @toaster best described the Erlky's staging as a "Christmas Tree", meaning average width but staggering upwards to a nice peak. Fortunately, the same unique staging applies to PHöNIX, which provides an intimate, airy presentation. This can work excellently depending on the track.
Imaging is excellent on both, and despite Blackbird lower-treble recession, I found it to have more accurate imaging with a touch more depth. The average width on PHöNIX made it difficult for me to pinpoint notes as easily, although I know others would argue otherwise.
Layering is a touch better on Blackbird. But PHöNIX does win on dynamics, meaning punchier transients (not just in bass, but overall) which does help with engagement for those who find Traillii too laid-back or "flat".
Winner: Blackbird, for me. I can respect an intimate presentation, but found PHöNIX width just too average.
Conclusion:
Traillii is old news to many, including myself. But after an optimistic blind-buy on PHöNIX, it did help me rekindle my love for the Noir bird. There is something magical about its tuning, balancing warmth with technicalities for a rich, airy, textured, emotional listen.
I've never been to a jazz club, so the PHöNIX staging analogy is a bit foreign to me. But it is undeniably more intimate, mid-forward and airy. Although I would classify the two IEMs closer to one another than the ERLKöNIG is to Traillii, PHöNIX & Traillii are still different enough to justify holding both if funds aren't an issue.
But ultimately for me, the Blackbird outmaneuvers the new, sexy, fiery PHöNIX and will continue nesting safely in my home.
TL;DR:
PHöNIX's additional treble may be a welcome treat for many who found ERLKöNIG too thick and warm, but it unfortunately does so at the expense of texture, body, and overall engagement for me. Despite falling short to my personal Blackbird Traillii, PHöNIX still offers a unique, seductive staging with excellent vocals and technicalities and should comfortably hold its' spot in the summit-fi world.
Let me preface this aerial fight with that I went into buying PHöNIX with hopes that it could replace Traillii for me. I am approaching my 1-year anniversary with my custom Blackbird, which is easily my longest commitment to any IEM. From impressions and reviews I've read, as well as my experience with the ERLKöNIG, I figured PHöNIX would provide the rich, emotional mid-range for vocals and instruments with world-class technicalities and tuning.
Does it? Mostly. Does the Firebird replace the Blackbird for me? Sadly, no.
Ergonomics, Synergy, and Packaging:
Two of my favorite tangible things about the Traillii has been:
1. It's superb fit
2. How consistently it sounds good across various DAPs/DACs/cables/file sources
I cannot say the same for PHöNIX. I had some fit issues with ERLKöNIG, but I thought it was the weight and figured PHöNIX would suffice better. But only one set of tips kept the IEM glued to my ears, and that was the trusty ol' Xelestecs. PHöNIX simply does not deem my earholes as an ideal nesting place
.Similar to ERLKöNIG, PHöNIX is more sensitive than Traillii on DAP synergies. It slightly hisses from my SP2000, iDSD Pro Signature, and to an extent, the L&P W2. It is not particularly noticeable but something worth noting. I also genuinely don't think the SP2000 is an ideal synergy for the PHöNIX (yet, amazing for the Blackbird), something I believe @Damz87 also noticed. Yet, for the majority of these impressions, I directly A/B'd the two IEMs on a mix of SP2000 and iFi iDSD Pro Signature (Solid State).
PHöNIX easily wins for general build, with a beautiful sapphire glass exterior and unique back-shell. It also has a much more elegant unpacking experience-but it's not difficult to beat Traillii's infamous cardboard box.
On the flipside, Blackbird comes with a better cable [PWA 1960 4wire], one that even elevates PHöNIX a notch or two versus its' stock cable.
Winner: Blackbird
Which Bird Sings Better?
Bass: In direct A/B, Blackbird's bass performance wins out for me. They are both top of their class when it comes to balanced-armature bass, providing excellent detail, speed and impact. But ultimately, the Blackbird's subbass emphasis is more tastefully done because it provides that additional detraction from the occasional BA-timbre midbass that ALL BA's will suffer from to some extent. (E.g., plasticky, lack of air movement). There is a noticeable subbass rolloff on PHöNIX, with an emphasis on midbass punch (which is no surprise given its' Erlky DNA).
PHöNIX's bass is clean and actually tighter than Blackbird. It provides solid punch but I did notice "pillow-y" BA timbre on tracks such as in Shahmen's "Mark (Emr3yugal Remix). Blackbird, on the hands, extends deeper into the frequencies with a more "DD-like" slam. Of course, neither will slam as authentically as an elite DD [EVO] or even Planar [LCD5], but still perform at the top of their class.
Winner: Blackbird
Mids: ERLKöNIG is in my top 3 for best mids of all time...not sure if I can say the same for PHöNIX. The best analogy I can use is the PHöNIX is to ERLKöNIG much like the LXSE is to the LX. Both PHöNIX and LXSE provide additional treble and air to their OG counterparts, which unfortunately affects the texture and warmth that I personally found special on the OGs.
Don't get me wrong-vocals sound excellent. PHöNIX adopts Erlky's DNA with more forward mids than Traillii, which will better suit those who found Traillii too laid-back. But I found Blackbird to have more texture and warmth which made instruments and vocals sound more organic than on PHöNIX. It's almost as if the mids on PHöNIX are clearly present, but glossed-over with a layer of air which just made it tougher for me to get engaged.
There is no winner here-it'll come down to preferences. If you want your vocals a little pushed back in the mix but with excellent microdetail and hint of warmth, go Traillii. If you want your mids more forward with strong body but on the brighter side, go PHöNIX.
Winner: Depends. [Blackbird for me though]
Treble: I have a sensitivity to poorly done and/or excessive lower treble, so it's no surprise that Blackbird's lower-treble dip strongly resonates with me. Yet in overall treble quantity, PHöNIX easily wins. There is more detail and air than on Bird, and I imagine this will suffice better for genres that require more upper-harmonics. Despite the treble quantity on PHöNIX, it is very smooth and eloquent. Yet, I still found Blackbird providing more sparkle, probably because it is easily for the sparkle to present itself in the midst of a darker lower-treble.
Although I personally prefer Blackbird's treble, I think I can admit that PHöNIX generally has the better overall treble balance- which makes it even more impressive given it uses BAs instead of electrostats.
Winner: PHöNIX
Soundstage/Technicalities: I'll keep this one brief. Blackbird wins in soundstage width and slightly depth, PHöNIX easily takes soundstage height. @toaster best described the Erlky's staging as a "Christmas Tree", meaning average width but staggering upwards to a nice peak. Fortunately, the same unique staging applies to PHöNIX, which provides an intimate, airy presentation. This can work excellently depending on the track.
Imaging is excellent on both, and despite Blackbird lower-treble recession, I found it to have more accurate imaging with a touch more depth. The average width on PHöNIX made it difficult for me to pinpoint notes as easily, although I know others would argue otherwise.
Layering is a touch better on Blackbird. But PHöNIX does win on dynamics, meaning punchier transients (not just in bass, but overall) which does help with engagement for those who find Traillii too laid-back or "flat".
Winner: Blackbird, for me. I can respect an intimate presentation, but found PHöNIX width just too average.
Conclusion:
Traillii is old news to many, including myself. But after an optimistic blind-buy on PHöNIX, it did help me rekindle my love for the Noir bird. There is something magical about its tuning, balancing warmth with technicalities for a rich, airy, textured, emotional listen.
I've never been to a jazz club, so the PHöNIX staging analogy is a bit foreign to me. But it is undeniably more intimate, mid-forward and airy. Although I would classify the two IEMs closer to one another than the ERLKöNIG is to Traillii, PHöNIX & Traillii are still different enough to justify holding both if funds aren't an issue.
But ultimately for me, the Blackbird outmaneuvers the new, sexy, fiery PHöNIX and will continue nesting safely in my home.
TL;DR:
PHöNIX's additional treble may be a welcome treat for many who found ERLKöNIG too thick and warm, but it unfortunately does so at the expense of texture, body, and overall engagement for me. Despite falling short to my personal Blackbird Traillii, PHöNIX still offers a unique, seductive staging with excellent vocals and technicalities and should comfortably hold its' spot in the summit-fi world.
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Thank you so much for writing this.Battle of the Birds: Vision Ears PHöNIX versus Oriolus Traillii JP
Let me preface this aerial fight with that I went into buying PHöNIX with hopes that it could replace Traillii for me. I am approaching my 1-year anniversary with my custom Blackbird, which is easily my longest commitment to any IEM. From impressions and reviews I've read, as well as my experience with the ERLKöNIG, I figured PHöNIX would provide the rich, emotional mid-range for vocals and instruments with world-class technicalities and tuning.
Does it? Mostly. Does the Firebird replace the Blackbird for me? Sadly, no.
Ergonomics + Synergy:
Two of my favorite tangible things about the Traillii has been:
1. It's superb fit
2. How consistently it sounds good across various DAPs/DACs/cables/file sources
I cannot say the same for PHöNIX. I had some fit issues with ERLKöNIG, but I thought it was the weight and figured PHöNIX would suffice better. But only one set of tips kept the IEM glued to my ears, and that was the trusty ol' Xelestecs. PHöNIX simply does not deem my earholes as an ideal nesting place
Similar to ERLKöNIG, PHöNIX is more sensitive than Traillii on DAP synergies. It slightly hisses from my SP2000, iDSD Pro Signature, and to an extent, the L&P W2. It is not particularly noticeable but something worth noting. I also genuinely don't think the SP2000 is an ideal synergy for the PHöNIX (yet, amazing for the Blackbird), something I believe @Damz87 also noticed. Yet, for the majority of these impressions, I directly A/B'd the two IEMs on a mix of SP2000 and iFi iDSD Pro Signature (Solid State).
PHöNIX easily wins for general build, with a beautiful sapphire glass exterior and unique back-shell.
Winner: Blackbird
Which Bird Sings Better?
Bass: In direct A/B, Blackbird's bass performance wins out for me. They are both top of their class when it comes to balanced-armature bass, providing excellent detail, speed and impact. But ultimately, the Blackbird's subbass emphasis is more tastefully done because it provides that additional detraction from the occasional BA-timbre midbass that ALL BA's will suffer from to some extent. (E.g., plasticky, lack of air movement). There is a noticeable subbass rolloff on PHöNIX, with an emphasis on midbass punch (which is no surprise given its' Erlky DNA).
PHöNIX's bass is clean and actually tighter than Blackbird. It provides solid punch but I did notice "pillow-y" BA timbre on tracks such as in Shahmen's "Mark (Emr3yugal Remix). Blackbird, on the hands, extends deeper into the frequencies with a more "DD-like" slam. Of course, neither will slam as authentically as an elite DD [EVO] or even Planar [LCD5], but still perform at the top of their class.
Winner: Blackbird
Mids: ERLKöNIG is in my top 3 for best mids of all time...not sure if I can say the same for PHöNIX. The best analogy I can use is the PHöNIX is to ERLKöNIG much like the LXSE is to the LX. Both PHöNIX and LXSE provide additional treble and air to their OG counterparts, which unfortunately affects the texture and warmth that I personally found special on the OGs.
Don't get me wrong-vocals sound excellent. PHöNIX adopts Erlky's DNA with more forward mids than Traillii, which will better suit those who found Traillii too laid-back. But I found Blackbird to have more texture and warmth which made instruments and vocals sound more organic than on PHöNIX. It's almost as if the mids on PHöNIX are clearly present, but glossed-over with a layer of air which just made it tougher for me to get engaged.
There is no winner here-it'll come down to preferences. If you want your vocals a little pushed back in the mix but with excellent microdetail and hint of warmth, go Traillii. If you want your mids more forward with strong body but on the brighter side, go PHöNIX.
Winner: Depends. [Blackbird for me though]
Treble: I have a sensitivity to poorly done and/or excessive lower treble, so it's no surprise that Blackbird's lower-treble dip strongly resonates with me. Yet in overall treble quantity, PHöNIX easily wins. There is more detail and air than on Bird, and I imagine this will suffice better for genres that require more upper-harmonics. Despite the treble quantity on PHöNIX, it is very smooth and eloquent. Yet, I still found Blackbird providing more sparkle, probably because it is easily for the sparkle to present itself in the midst of a darker lower-treble.
Although I personally prefer Blackbird's treble, I think I can admit that PHöNIX generally has the better overall treble balance- which makes it even more impressive given it uses BAs instead of electrostats.
Winner: PHöNIX
Soundstage/Technicalities: I'll keep this one brief. Blackbird wins in soundstage width and slightly depth, PHöNIX easily takes soundstage height. @toaster best described the Erlky's staging as a "Christmas Tree", meaning average width but staggering upwards to a nice peak. Fortunately, the same unique staging applies to PHöNIX, which provides an intimate, airy presentation. This can work excellently depending on the track.
Imaging is excellent on both, and despite Blackbird lower-treble recession, I found it to have more accurate imaging with a touch more depth. The average width on PHöNIX made it difficult for me to pinpoint notes as easily, although I know others would argue otherwise.
Layering is a touch better on Blackbird. But PHöNIX does win on dynamics, meaning punchier transients (not just in bass, but overall) which does help with engagement for those who find Traillii too laid-back or "flat".
Winner: Blackbird, for me. I can respect an intimate presentation, but found PHöNIX width just too average.
Conclusion:
Traillii is old news to many, including myself. But after an optimistic blind-buy on PHöNIX, it did help me rekindle my love for the Noir bird. There is something magical about its tuning, balancing warmth with technicalities for a rich, airy, textured, emotional listen.
I've never been to a jazz club, so the PHöNIX staging analogy is a bit foreign to me. But it is undeniably more intimate, mid-forward and airy. Although I would classify the two IEMs closer to one another than the ERLKöNIG is to Traillii, PHöNIX & Traillii are still different enough to justify holding both if funds aren't an issue.
But ultimately for me, the Blackbird outmaneuvers the new, sexy, fiery PHöNIX and will continue nesting safely in my home.
TL;DR:
PHöNIX's additional treble may be a welcome treat for many who found ERLKöNIG too thick and warm, but it unfortunately does so at the expense of texture, body, and overall engagement for me. Despite falling short to my personal Blackbird Traillii, PHöNIX still offers a unique, seductive staging with excellent vocals and technicalities and should comfortably hold its' spot in the summit-fi world.
Phonix is on my short list to hear, still going to.
I expect I will hear it the same way you do.
Mids forward is one of the signatures that fit with what I want sometimes, depending on mood and music, that is what I will be listening for.
Particularly with lower range female vocals.
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tawmizzzz
1000+ Head-Fier
I think it will compliment your IEMs excellently
. Maybe somewhat of a mix between Traillii + Elysium. You also have a variety of DAPs to roll and find an ideal synergy, which I think will be key for many.
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