[Arysyn]

Firstly for me graphs mean nothing, I take no notice of them and rely on my own ears, I understand people who do value them but I would personally never let a chart dictate what I buy.
The Sennheiser IE800/s models to me have no upper treble issues but then I don’t think the Flares Pro’s have upped treble issues either. I understand you don’t like the upper treble of the Pro but you write as if Flare deliberately tuned them this way, again to my ears they don’t have this issue.

Now to the differences between the IE800 and the newer S version - the S for me is more refined than the older model, bass still cuts deep with nice texture but the mids and high are so fluid and natural sounding. The old IE800 may have had a slight V signature but the S version doesn’t to these ears.

Now in comparasion to the Pro/Gold.
In some respects the IE800 and the Pro’s were quite similar in terms of their bass response but I found the treble response and depth better on the older Sennheiser. The S version to me was a better earphone than the Pro, just everything bar the amount of bass was better, hence me selling the Pro’s at that time.
I probably need more time to compare the Golds and the IE800s but my early impressions are that the golds are a definite step up from the Pro’s. In some respects they are quite similar, both have amazing stage, depth and separation, very similar on both. The bass on the Golds probably hits a bit deeper than the Ie800s and the sub bass is probably more present on the Golds but don’t be deceived by this as it’s also present on the IE800s. I defiantly need more time with them though as these are very early impressions.

I've just listened to that Enigma track on the Pro's and its certainly not harsh to me (using a high end desktop system, audiophile tips). That percussion they're using is all sampled though, I can tell easily on these, and its not particularly realistic either!

You may just have a sensitivity to that frequency range, I've not heard any harshness on the Pro's at all, but realise we all hear differently and have our own preferences.

Did you ever experiment with different tips on the Pro's, not just the Flare Audio ones? Some tips will certainly tame that peak at ca. 9khz though I've not got any measurements to prove it. Certainly it sounds that way to me. The normal Comply T200's work quite well for that, but I prefer the Audiphile ones overall at the moment.

Some people notice the harshness while others don't. It certainly isn't so bad there is screeching noise as I've noticed a bit in the treble of the Ortofon EQ8. However, it produces a metallic sound during specific sections of ROB in the latter half. I noticed this on the Pro probably more because I don't hear it on most other iems, rather than it being because of any apparent defect of the Pro.

The other thing is that the FlaresPro just sound so damn good in every other way, and with most non - heavier treble tuned, maybe songs with heavier sampled percussion or whatever is about the few songs I've noticed this on, seems to cause this glare from the FlaresPro. Its as if the FP is bringing out music in the treble (I'm fairly convinced its in the upper treble region), making it more forward. Flare's sound generally seems more forward overall, which is great for vocals and lower treble detail, but not upper treble.

I know not everyone is as reliant on fr graphs as I am, but they do help to give a general idea about the product. I'm going to find the graph of the R2 and post it here, along with the FlaresPro again, for a comparative visual example to what I'm about to mention. The R2 and the FlaresPro essentially are very similar in the bass and mids, with the exception of improvements in those areas on the FP, but no major tuning differences. The similarities stop when it gets to the treble. The FP has a neutral treble throughout, with the extended upper treble bump, while the R2 goes for lesser treble below neutral pretty much all the way through. By the way, is this what people here mean by "Rolled-Off Treble"?

My suggestion for Flare would be to work on extending the lower treble , while neutralizing the middle of the treble and upper treble. Its true that I write about Flare purposely tuning the upper treble the way it is on the FP. That is because, for one, its quite vastly different from the R2 line. Then the question of "Why"? is there, which to that there is Flare's advertising of their "Live Sound" Approach. When I got more familiar with EQ, I was able to learn more in my hearing to match all the online research I've done in learning more about audio, and atmospherically the upper treble region is a big part in that. This, also confirmed by the fr graph Flare sent to me showing the upper treble bump.

The lower treble can also help with this, but to a lesser extent. The lower treble is more details than space, but still can add some sense of space by use of careful tuning particularly in the latter part of the lower treble. I've noticed in most iems trying to create space, its done by recessing the mids and giving the sound that V-Shape I despise so much. Yet, Flare doesn't do this. Instead, they follow a more neutral/forward approach, which I really like and I greatly appreciate Flare Audio for doing. If only they kept that throughout the treble.

In my usage, I had my Spinfit Twinblade eartips I know did not have any negative effect on the sound of the FP. Using them and my main portable dac source, the Meridian Explorer2, sounds fine with the Grado iems I have, the Massdrop HiFiMan RE00 also. However, the problem exists on the FlaresPro, regardless of portable dac either, as ithad the issue while using the Zorloo Zuperdac (1st model,), along with more bass. Also, I've since spent some time reading about the ZZ's higher output impedance and its effects on bass while listening to a Dynamic Driver iem.

I don't have any desktop amplifiers or dacs, since everything in audio I have needs to be portable for my usage. Still, I really like the Meridian Explorer2 I have.

The R2Pro, from : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/flare-audio-r2pro-kickstarter-campaign.766183/page-124

 

[McCol]

These Golds are a bit special, been listening to a few different albums and genres today and they continue to impress.

 

[SteveKiwi]

I agree 100% with your assesment

 

[LuckyNat]

These Golds are a bit special, been listening to a few different albums and genres today and they continue to impress.

Feel free to expand when you feel you can!

 

[Arysyn]

Feel free to expand when you feel you can!

Yes, please do!

 

[Jonathan Dunham]

I came home the other day and put what I was listening to on Tidal on the hifi and suddenly thought "it's so much easier to get an amazing sound with headphones!" . I'm using Celestion SL700s (great 80s speakers) and Hypex Class D amps. The hifi sounds great but I have to be in the right spot, my partner somewhere else and the lights out (because otherwise I don't get absorbed like I do with iems). Obviously you don't get the physical input like you can with speakers.

I do understand about the immediate accessibility you get with IEM's. Though if you want what for me should be a recreation of a performance in my living room, IEM/headphone's are never going to provide that. Its an unnatural experience, you're immersed in the sound rather than listening to a performance being played to you. I subscribe to the QUAD "the closest approach to the original sound" and only a decent speaker set is going to provide that 3D recreation, giving you depth width and height, and if you have a full range system, the visceral impact of the bass too, I don't mean of the electronic variety, but for example hearing a double bass being played close up in a club. Even my desktop speaker system will provide me with a more convincing performance than my headphones or IEM's. I do realise I'm lucky though, having my main working office to myself and so not disturbing others.

 

[LuckyNat]

I feel I have had this discussion kind of else where - and came to the conclusion that there are people looking for and enjoying different things with their audio.

I get immersion from iems because the sound is all I hear - nothing else from outside of the imaginary world. Speakers for me often sound in front of me which is non-immersive for me, unless the room is helping with immersion but then imparting the sound of the room on top. Speakers in front sound to me like I'm listening to something constructed. Concerts are constructed and strictly so - can't go and sit on stage for example, very much "we play here and you listen from there".

When I've worked in theatre and played in bands and orchestras (at younger age), because of your unique position and involvement, everything is real, immersive and this to me is what "real" and natural sounds like, like I'm taking part. If helping set-up a piano on stage for something for example, I'd hinder sound check by taking the opportunity to listen from inside the lid of the piano, where the mics were being placed. That way I could sample for myself exactly what the mics are picking up and how it should be replayed immersively. Of course, they are instead played in a very unnaturally wide stereo pair each side of the stage - much like so many recordings we play in our homes and headphones.

But it does depend both on the recording and how we hear - many people feel the sound from headphones is inside their head and don't like it. Many people don't feel that though - it can be quite personal, psychoacoustical and individual.

I'd love stuff to be mainly binaural !

 

[McCol]

I do understand about the immediate accessibility you get with IEM's. Though if you want what for me should be a recreation of a performance in my living room, IEM/headphone's are never going to provide that. Its an unnatural experience, you're immersed in the sound rather than listening to a performance being played to you. I subscribe to the QUAD "the closest approach to the original sound" and only a decent speaker set is going to provide that 3D recreation, giving you depth width and height, and if you have a full range system, the visceral impact of the bass too, I don't mean of the electronic variety, but for example hearing a double bass being played close up in a club. Even my desktop speaker system will provide me with a more convincing performance than my headphones or IEM's. I do realise I'm lucky though, having my main working office to myself and so not disturbing others.

For me this is purely down to personal preference and I don’t think any ‘expert’ can tell me different.

I love the sound from my speakers and home hifi, however I find more and more that I prefer listening to music through either my iem’s or full size headphones. There are many reasons for this, but mostly I just feel more at one with the sound when it is played through my earphones.

 

[Jonathan Dunham]

For me this is purely down to personal preference and I don’t think any ‘expert’ can tell me different.

I love the sound from my speakers and home hifi, however I find more and more that I prefer listening to music through either my iem’s or full size headphones. There are many reasons for this, but mostly I just feel more at one with the sound when it is played through my earphones.

Were you inferring that I am an expert, trying to tell you what to prefer?!

 

[McCol]

Were you inferring that I am an expert, trying to tell you what to prefer?!

No didn’t mean you, sorry if it seemed like I was saying that. Having re read my post it does seem a bit like that. Sorry

 

[james444]

What is balanced, equalised, made symmetric, is how the air pressurises in front and behind the driver.

Imho, it's only possible to make that symmetric for a standardized IEC 711 coupler, but not for human ears. The simple reason is that acoustic impedances of ear canals and ear drums vary significantly among individuals. And the sound pressure (= air pressure) across the frequency spectrum varies according to these impedances. So, how do you make varying front pressures symmetric to a fixed rear pressure? It seems logically impossible in my book.

I promise not to post any more long posts theorising how flares work... I realise it can break up the conversation. Although I find it interesting and it helps me understand it by writing about it.

Same here, I found the conversation interesting, but if it disrupts the flow for others, let's just leave it at that.

 

[rickhawk22]

The human ear, can regulate the pressure on the ear drum with the help of the body, as experienced when you fly, or go up or down in elevation in a mountain. By opening the mouth, and/or swallowing, there is some type of pressure regulation going on. I don't know the particulars of the science of it all, but I would think pushing an IEM with foam that slowly fills in the gaps, or silicon that may push air around it to get a seal, wouldn't be that difficult for our ears to acclimate to the sound pressure created by that process.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what some are trying to figure out with the technology that Flares uses.

 

[McCol]

A wee update on the Golds.

These are really impressing me, got a few hours on them and the bass is really something special to my ear. When the track demands bass it is there, you can almost feel the kick drum not just hear it, that’s not to say these are a bass heads dream though, just accurate, deep and textured in the bass response.
The mids and high are silky smooth to these ears, nice separation and almost a layered type effect to the music. Not explaining that well, wouldn’t call it 3D but the depth and the Soundstage of the music is up there with the IE800s.

Don’t want to speak too soon but I think Flare have something special with the Golds.

As a side note, they also sound pretty awesome straight from the iPhone X but really excel when paired with my MojoPoly combo.

 

[LuckyNat]

Imho, it's only possible to make that symmetric for a standardized IEC 711 coupler, but not for human ears. The simple reason is that acoustic impedances of ear canals and ear drums vary significantly among individuals. And the sound pressure (= air pressure) across the frequency spectrum varies according to these impedances. So, how do you make varying front pressures symmetric to a fixed rear pressure? It seems logically impossible in my book.
.

Only my long posts I was worried about - I'm not very concise.

I would guess that it's a matter of significance - which has more effect, the small and confined space inside the iem enclosure or the comparatively large volume of the ear canal? One would have to test. But one can design to a theory whilst it being impossible to test (short of using a cadaver! I'd like to see that on a test bench lol) how well it works other than just listening, finding the design philosophy is producing good sonic results and then assuming your theory is therefore correct (even though it's not real proof, just correlation of something else).

 

[holden4th]

...and now there's this

https://www.flareaudio.com/products/flares-jet