[Cecala]

What I find amazing about this place is the massive difference in what people hear or don't hear. People hear bass bloat or no bass bloat. They say the bass bleeds into the mids and some say they don't. Others hear rumble and some don't. One has to read and re-read all so called opinions and try to make some sense in it all. Some would say that they are all technically correct because we hear differently, yes this is true to a point although................In the end it comes down to preference. One mans bass is anothers boomy bass and congestion, one person's rolled off treble is again somebody's perfect extension and so on and so on.
 
Read and if somebody says the right words then proceed and read some more until you're satisfied to a point where you can purchase them and be happy.

 

[Kurdt-bada]

Well said but we have to differenciate between personal preference and sound objetivity and many times subjectivity wins the battle over real criticism...

 

[Sweden]

It's not exactly surprising that different people hear different regarding in-ears. Fit is such a huge factor regarding this, but age, hearing ability, source gear, what your reference and preference is, your music taste, if you listen in loud environments etc make the variables countless.
 
I for one consider a slightly elevated bass that goes up 3-8 db from 200 hz to 20hz a realistic bass in in-ears and therefore neutral.
Headphones can't carry the same amount of impact and chest compression (no schiit) in the lows compared to speakers and have to correct this with greater volume. If you listen in really loud environment an even more elevated bass can be appropriate as low frequencies are the first to drown out.
The number is varied as different drivers have different ability to carry fullness and slam. 
I have not heard one single balanced armature driver or TWFK driver that have realistic bass response no matter how you EQ it though.

 

[Cecala]

   
..........I for one consider a slightly elevated bass that goes up 3-8 db from 200 hz to 20hz a realistic bass in in-ears and therefore neutral.................
.

This is my point,you prefer or consider your statement about elevated bass as being neutral(as long as you distinguish it as such). I could never argue against that because it's what you like. I myself prefer slighty brighter treble and forward mids.
As Kurdt said "..many times subjectivity wins the battle over real criticism..."
Some people here push their subjective opinion and pass it as gospel and argue to the death.
No names.

 

[Ultrazino]

Our whole community should try to sit down together in a one month long workshop and figure out what the ideal sound is. My experience is, that on meets or face-to-face discussions you eventually will always agree on something. Usually neither person A's initial nor person B's assertion is right.
 
But as Sweden said, there are too many factors at play, hearing differences being one. This could be minimized with A/B comparisons of actual live performances with acoustic instruments and the final in-ear gear.
 
I do insist that a bass boost of IE800 cannot be right. If my home speaker was tuned similarly, my neighbors would be knocking on my door every day.
However, a little warmth does seem to be favorable - Golden Ears and M.R.O. (Olive-Welti) seem to agree. How much warmth we actually need is not so easy to tell though. Based on this, I do want to respond to the "better extension" yet again. Say if our whole community could agree on a reference target, 2dB too much would be just as wrong as 2dB too little. It would not make a difference between better or worse. Missed target by 2dB is a missed target by 2dB. Simple maths. A 'more sub-bass is always better' mentality seems to be exclusive to Head-Fi, from my observations.
 
But this is completely off-topic, so I will repeat myself and confirm that I think the FA4 is a great product (just not my favorite tuning), hoping this gets things back on track.
 
Cheers and a happy weekend!

 

[Sweden]

The reality is that you really can't see it black and white with numbers and measurements.
A 3 db bass boost over flat with the LCD-2 or a big dynamic driver will not have the bass sensation at all as with a small balanced armature and the same amount of measured bass boost.
They way the drivers deliver sound by pushing the air can't really be compared.
 
However I do think we will develop a more detailed and scientifically correct way of knowing what is preferred sound and neutrality regarding headphones.
In my experience you have to separate in-ears as well, and headphones designed to listen to in noisy environments. I wouldn't be surprised with a headphone in the future that automatically adds a little more bass in order to compensate the drowning out effect. Perhaps that will unnecessary as the noise cancelling will be close to 100% who knows. 
 
What Harman Researchers have done to increase understanding regarding this is an important step forward. I would like to see more research done, and head-fi would be a very good place to find willing test subjects and knowledgeable people.
 
I actually think adding the kind of bass boost the IE800 have is a smart move by Sennheiser.
1. It's a headphone for noisy environment so some type of compensating bass is preferred. 
2. The bass don't bleed into the mids and is focused on the deep bass. The bass is still very detailed and tight.
3. People (many average joe's) who audition it in shops for a short while will be impressed by the extra punch, rumble and excitements it gives to the music. It's like extra chocolate sauce on an already tasty chocolate ice cream.
4. It works well with a lot of popular music.
 
Personally I think the bass boost of the IE800 is too much above what I consider neutral listening in a quiet environment.
On a noisy subway train it works as intended.

 

[LFC_SL]

Think people are confusing personal preference with objective science. And the sound science section.
 
Bass bias is quite right, it helps to drown out the rhythm of commuter environmental noise. That is what is works at. Have seen though people seem to say FA-4 and ASG2 are different flavours on the same level. Hmm. Think might be worth seeing what that new venture at Noble Audio bring to the table.

 

[Sweden]

It's very hard to combine objective science and listening enjoyments which is very much a subjective field.
You can almost liken it with the problem of combining classic Einsteinian physics with the somewhat irrational and unpredictable quantum physics to create a unified theory.
We have a rather crude understanding today what constitute a good sounding measurement. There is still possible for a good measurement to sound bad and vice versa. Still good measurements sound better than bad measurements most of the time which is a good indicator.
With the rise of better measurements, a greater understanding of these measurements and better understanding of the brain and neuroscience I don't see a reason why we can't merge the two fully some day. Individual variation aka personal bias is going to be an interesting challenge for an emergent future sound science.

 

[Ultrazino]

  I actually think adding the kind of bass boost the IE800 have is a smart move by Sennheiser.
1. It's a headphone for noisy environment so some type of compensating bass is preferred. 

 
This is not the IE800 thread, but IMO it's a bad design by Sennheiser because the IE800 is not intended for outside usage. Isolation is very poor, they have a very lightweight design and thus fall out easily (wearing the cable over ear is not an option), many people report that the cable becomes very stiff after time (it already is out of the box) so the portability is very poor with this particular in-ear.
 
Noise should not be compensated by bass but drowned by isolation. Unless you are professional on a very noisy stage where 26dB isolation alone is not enough (e.g. customs) or you need to hear the bass track.
The Fischer Amps definitely isolated enough when I used them outside (street, train, tram). And I listen at low volumes.
 
The IE800 is faking better sound by adding more sub-bass and highs. And from my observation, it works really well. Look how many people write "the bass is so great, extends so low, I can hear bass that I couldn't hear before" - which is nonsense. You could hear it before but you were not supposed to! And the highs fake detail, yet their timbre is totally off and tinny.
The IE800 is anything but "hifi." It's what the market wants - but our community never was about fitting in with the market. If you want to praise Sennheiser, I gladly show you the direction to Amazon, but our niche market (professionals and hifi-enthusiasts) would not seriously want to pay that kind of money for the flawed IE800.

 

[MoonYeol]

I'd say that even professionals and enthusiasts are allowed to have kind of guily pleasures such as the, in your opinion, coloured IE800. It's statements like yours that make audiophiles look like elitist dou ches.

 

[Ultrazino]

I'm guilty. But if Sennheiser claims they created a reference and a superior sound, elitism is what they deserve.

So not a poor product, but bad marketing?

 

[Sweden]

Yeah right in-ears isn't meant for portable outside use at all where some type of noise is present most of the time.
It's not like most people use them on their commute, when they go to the gym and in their noisy office. That's the place people use open back headphones see.
 
 
No problem for me using the IE800 with comply tips, over-ear fit, not falling out and above average isolation. The isolation and fit could be better, but to say this (and light weight?) automatically makes them a Sony 7550 is rather nonsense. The biggest fail is the microphonic cable and the placement of the strain relief. Microphonic cable is unacceptable in my book, but it can be tempered with an over-ear fit. From what I've read a lot of people struggle using them this way so it's probably going to be a deal breaker for many people.
 
The sound is still the best I've heard in a in-ear. The mids are some of the best I've heard in a headphone period. Super clear and detailed, but at the same time no hint of analytical dryness. Just beautiful and effortless. The high manage to stay clear and detailed without being overly harsh or strident. The treble is not as good as the mids but still decent. The bass is textured, extended and with the right kind of fullness and impact. The only thing in the presentation that stands out is the deep bass boost which is intended I suppose as a deliberate counteraction of the drowning out effect, and it works as intended. I understand if some bass sensitive people consider this a deal breaker.
Not sure what kind of words Sennheiser used when marketing this in-ears, and I don't give a schiit either, because they managed to create an in-ear which makes music sound fantastic. It's rare to find a headphone of this technical ability which is truly an allrounder when it comes to genres, and I listen to just about everything apart from Diana Krall.
 

   
 If you want to praise Sennheiser, I gladly show you the direction to Amazon, but our niche market (professionals and hifi-enthusiasts) would not seriously want to pay that kind of money for the flawed IE800.

 
 
I'm with my Swedish fellow man here when I say you very much sound like an elitist ******.

 

[MoonYeol]

I'm guilty. But if Sennheiser claims they created a reference and a superior sound, elitism is what they deserve.

So not a poor product, but bad marketing?

 
Did they state what kind of reference they created? One could argue that they meant their subjective reference as to how they want an in-ear monitor to sound. And well, it all depends on what you mean by superior sound. Superior as in "makes people enjoy their music more than other headphones" or as in "more closely following the diffuse-field reference"? Isn't everything except perfectly flat studio monitors and ER4S more or less just different flavours of sound? If I say that the ASG-2 is superior to all other iems (when it comes to rocking out on a bus, with lots of noise) that may be true for me, in my circumstances, with my conditions. We can't possibly know what conditions were assumed when the claim was made. We can only guess if they don't give us their scenario.
 
I can really understand your aggression towards false claims of higher fidelity or bloated marketing, celebrity endorsement etc etc. But we're basically in a grey zone here between subjective and objective claims of superiority. And I understand that you want to put "hard against hard" as we say in Sweden; if they think they can come here and claim that they created something that's better than the existing iems, they need to be pulled back down to Earth again.
 
Anyway, I think we should leave this discussion. Call it a day (or night) and be happy with what we have, have heard and are going to hear. It really is interesting times now and the development is rapid. Let's just hope that the top tier universals continue to evolve.
 
On a related note, I think I will have enough money to buy the FA-4E very soon. Very.

 

[Kurdt-bada]

 I'm impatient to see the role they will play in your little dysfunctional family

 

[MoonYeol]

Crap. We just noticed that my gf may have to borrow 400€ from me for a month. Wait a minute. That amount seems familiar...