[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night Surfer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Side rant... Agree but for a different reason...It's the metal fans who created the hard rock label for bands that weren't (insert appropriate metal adjective (thrash, doom, death, goth...) here) enough to be "metal". How greats like Led Zeppelin and ACDC get excluded is beyond be. As far as I can tell the only thing that separates "hard rock" are singers who could actually sing and weren't into tight leather pants and skulls and such. Resume topic, sorry.

Werd.

I love metal. The metal community can be cool as hell, too, but it seems like especially recently, it's degenerated into nothing more than "category wars" rather than a unified group of people. You have the "____-core" guys who think anything else is just ***** metal and anyone who listens to it is just a little fag who can't handle the "real" stuff. You have the nu-metal guys who think stuff like SOAD, Disturbed, and Linkin Park should be, somehow, associated with metal, and will defend those bands (especially Disturbed) way past the point of reason. You have the "myspace metal" guys (least, that's what I call them....they're the people who think gurgling and beating instruments as fast as possible makes something metal, especially if all the songs are indistinguishable from any other songs by that same band or even genre) who think if a band actually records an album or has more than 5 low-fi songs on their myspace page, they've "sold out" and hate said bands. Incidentally, myspace metal guys are the same ones who love to scream "METALLICA SOLD OUT!" when they've never even really listened to any Metallica to begin with.

It seems metal is less about the music now and more about what group one associates oneself with. Sort of sad, really.

 

[ZackP]

You have the kids who aren't into metal (all other music) and those that are into metal.

Metallica did sell out, denying that is just silly.

 

[scytheavatar]

Metallica sold out and the only people who considered typical nu-metal to be metal are the ones who don't know what metal is.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackP /img/forum/go_quote.gif Metallica did sell out, denying that is just silly.

How'd Metallica sell out? They changed their sound somewhat...so what?

Fear Factory has changed their sound a huge amount, same with Lamb of God. Neither of those bands are considered "sellouts". NIN's sound has changed since Reznor first started. Nightwish has a different sound with Annette singing now, and Killswitch Engage's last album was a huge swing towards the emo lyrics that were so popular.

If none of those bands are considered sell-outs - and last I checked, none of them were - then why is Metallica? Because they switched from thrash metal to normal metal?

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

I love metal. The metal community can be cool as hell, too, but it seems like especially recently, it's degenerated into nothing more than "category wars" rather than a unified group of people.

That happened to "rock" music long ago.

 

[ZackP]

Saint Anger was a horrible nu-metal/modern rock album. It started with the black album, which became poppier than any real thrash album should be. There is a difference between changing your sound in a positive result because the artist wants to, and changing to make money and become pop.

KsE has never been metal either, so I could care less what they do.

 

[scytheavatar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonicLemming /img/forum/go_quote.gif How'd Metallica sell out? They changed their sound somewhat...so what? Fear Factory has changed their sound a huge amount, same with Lamb of God. Neither of those bands are considered "sellouts". NIN's sound has changed since Reznor first started. Nightwish has a different sound with Annette singing now, and Killswitch Engage's last album was a huge swing towards the emo lyrics that were so popular. If none of those bands are considered sell-outs - and last I checked, none of them were - then why is Metallica? Because they switched from thrash metal to normal metal?

Firstly I certainly considered Nightwish to have sold out since Once. Secondly, NIN has never been metal (they are industrial rock), while Killswitch Engage is borderline metal at best. Fear Factory has changed their sound but they have always been Industrial Metal, Lamb of God has always been Metalcore/Groove metal. Metallica's Load/Reload are 100% rock albums, they sound like something Led Zeppelin would have produced. St Anger is an attempt by them to return to their thrash roots, but it's a disaster that's still rock. They have pretty much strayed away from their Thrash roots and are playing straight hard rock that has nothing to do with metal. How is that not selling out?

 

[Meliboeus]

X2, sometimes i listen to something off St. Anger on youtube...man it is terrible...the sound of the drums oh my god....i think it's awful even for the standards of nu...

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackP /img/forum/go_quote.gif Saint Anger was a horrible nu-metal/modern rock album. It started with the black album, which became poppier than any real thrash album should be. There is a difference between changing your sound in a positive result because the artist wants to, and changing to make money and become pop. KsE has never been metal either, so I could care less what they do.

St. Anger did suck, but I don't think Metallica changed their sound to become more mainstream and make more money. Ulrich might have had that as an ulterior motive, but what drives Ulrich isn't what drives Metallica as a band.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Firstly I certainly considered Nightwish to have sold out since Once. Secondly, NIN has never been metal (they are industrial rock), while Killswitch Engage is borderline metal at best. Fear Factory has changed their sound but they have always been Industrial Metal, Lamb of God has always been Metalcore/Groove metal. Metallica's Load/Reload are 100% rock albums, they sound like something Led Zeppelin would have produced. St Anger is an attempt by them to return to their thrash roots, but it's a disaster that's still rock. They have pretty much strayed away from their Thrash roots and are playing straight hard rock that has nothing to do with metal. How is that not selling out?

How is that selling out? This is something I don't understand - because a band alters how they sound, they "sell out"? That comes dangerously close to the claims that bands sell out when they become more popular from their underground roots.

I don't consider a band changing their sound "selling out" in any way, unless it's a hugely blatant change like Stone Sour doing their emo switch. When I think "selling out," I think of KISS and the ungodly disgusting market they've made around KISS merchandise - they stopped making music, and started making everything else to make money. Selling out to me implies using music to garner a large fan base, and then to stop bothering with music in order to foist anything and everything that could imaginably be related to the band onto the consumers.

If a small band alters their sound a bit to appeal to a broader audience, why is that bad? Without being successful, a band can't stay together because they're not making money, and while I'm sure lots of people would be happy making music for other people to enjoy, that doesn't pay the bills. One example of that is Chimaira. Their initial stuff (and I have the original demo tape versions of Impossibility of Reason and Pass out of Existence) sounds a lot different from their newer stuff - but without changing their sound some, their music would have gotten stale, they'd have lost fans, and they'd have broken up.

 

[Meliboeus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonicLemming /img/forum/go_quote.gif How is that selling out? This is something I don't understand - because a band alters how they sound, they "sell out"? That comes dangerously close to the claims that bands sell out when they become more popular from their underground roots. Without being successful, a band can't stay together because they're not making money, and while I'm sure lots of people would be happy making music for other people to enjoy, that doesn't pay the bills.

unfortunately this is true...some people feel the need to make money, this is the purpose of the entire mainstream music market, there are no artists on the radio, just products...but i don't think that it is something to be encouraged, it is really sad ....but...there are still bands who manage to remain underground and stay alive in the underground scene ( think about all the NSBM scene )...how ? simply because earning tons of money is not necessary,band members sometimes work for a living beside playing...this "if you make music,you have to earn money" is why bands like metallica are considered sell outs...how did they manage to remain "underground" - not so much underground...but the metal scene is pretty underground itself - for ...ten years or so...and they suddenly needed to make money ? no, they didn't need it, they wanted it...there's a great difference...if you want ...you can still continue to be a musician, an artist and not a commercial produce, even in today's society...there are thousands of examples...thousand dollars recording studios are not necessary, Burzum recorded his most famous album with a computer headset microphone...

Yes , he made music that 99% of people would classify as yust noise...but at least he pursued his own ideas without hearing the call of money...

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meliboeus /img/forum/go_quote.gif unfortunately this is true...some people feel the need to make money, this is the purpose of the entire mainstream music market, there are no artists on the radio, just products...but i don't think that it is something to be encouraged, it is really sad ....but...there are still bands who manage to remain underground and stay alive in the underground scene ( think about all the NSBM scene )...how ? simply because earning tons of money is not necessary,band members sometimes work for a living beside playing...this "if you make music,you have to earn money" is why bands like metallica are considered sell outs...how did they manage to remain "underground" - not so much underground...but the metal scene is pretty underground itself - for ...ten years or so...and they suddenly needed to make money ? no, they didn't need it, they wanted it...there's a great difference...if you want ...you can still continue to be a musician, an artist and not a commercial produce, even in today's society...there are thousands of examples...thousand dollars recording studios are not necessary, Burzum recorded his most famous album with a computer headset microphone... Yes , he made music that 99% of people would classify as yust noise...but at least he pursued his own ideas without hearing the call of money...

I understand how quite a few good bands can remain underground and stay active for a very long time. Hell, most of the music I listen to would be considered underground by a lot of people, although that's not why I listen to it.

I think a big issue is that when people have a favorite band, they want to think that band is just about making music for people to enjoy. As long as the band is in essence a side-project to the members' lives, they can concentrate on that. However, when a band gets more popular and really demands to be a full-time job, I don't think it's quite right to start screaming "SELL OUTS!" when the band changes their sound a bit to gain a larger, more stable fan base not so affected by vagaries of short-term trends and the like, and yes, in order to make more money.

Quite honestly, most of the people who scream "sell out" would probably do the exact same thing most bands do - cash in on their success to make money. No one wants to live poor. Plus, if a band never really changes the sound of their music - take Meshuggah, for instance - they'll still retain hardcore fans, but most people won't like them so much because all of their music really sounds the same. Lamb of God is one of my favorite bands, and a major reason for that is that each of their albums sounds different - it still has that Lamb of God flavor, but with different spices thrown on each one.

 

[Meliboeus]

I got your point... you are talking about "changing your sound"....but there are many degrees of changing...for example screaming "sellouts!" to Black sabbath for the Dio years albums is yust stupid fanboyism...because this is a change which perhaps produces a more accesible sound, but it is part of an artist's career to change his style...but i think that the word sellout is the right one when "appealing to a larger fanbase" means compeltely change your music - but still pretending to be the same genre, which is really annoying - with the sole purpose of making money, thus becoming a marketing product, Metallica didn't have much tv airtime before going to mainstream rock...but ...if they're happy with their succes and their money, not caring about their fans...well i'm not interested at all, there are many bands out there

They are free to do whatever they want with their talent, including wasting it...

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meliboeus /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got your point... you are talking about "changing your sound"....but there are many degrees of changing...for example screaming "sellouts!" to Black sabbath for the Dio years albums is yust stupid fanboyism...because this is a change which perhaps produces a more accesible sound, but it is part of an artist's career to change his style...but i think that the word sellout is the right one when "appealing to a larger fanbase" means compeltely change your music - but still pretending to be the same genre, which is really annoying - with the sole purpose of making money, thus becoming a marketing product, Metallica didn't have much tv airtime before going to mainstream rock...but ...if they're happy with their succes and their money, not caring about their fans...well i'm not interested at all, there are many bands out there They are free to do whatever they want with their talent, including wasting it...

I don't think Hetfield and Hammett don't care about their fans. Ulrich is a different story. Had he been killed instead of Cliff Burton, we'd have a radically different Metallica today.

 

[scytheavatar]

Right, you know exactly how Hetfield, Hammett and Co feel because you're a psychic?

Metallica didn't just change their sound 'a bit'. They have completely abandoned their roots and crossed over to a different genre. Almost all bands become increasingly accessible over the years, but the ones which disgust me are bands like Metallica, Cryptopsy and In Flames who pretty much point their middle finger on the fans who had supported them over the years and create music which they are just not capable of producing.

 

[scytheavatar]

Right, you know exactly how Hetfield, Hammett and Co feel because you're a psychic?

Metallica didn't just change their sound 'a bit'. They have completely abandoned their roots and crossed over to a different genre. Almost all bands become increasingly accessible over the years, but the ones which disgust me are bands like Metallica, Cryptopsy and In Flames who pretty much point their middle finger on the fans who had supported them over the years and create music which they are just not capable of producing.

Changing your sound is certainly ok; changing your sound to become more accessible is generally ok too. Changing your music to another genre in an attempt to be much more popular is sickening.