[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Because so many recordings out there sound like crap... thin/bright or otherwise poor. I actually don't listen to metal at all, and very little rock these days either. Not only because I don't like those genres much (anymore), but because the generally poor sound quality makes it an unpleasant experience a lot of the time.

Definitely.

If you ever want to look into getting back into the realm (which, of course, is left to your discretion

), here are a few very well recorded albums to check out. You might never use this list, but if anyone does it's worth having made it.

Dream Theater (well known prog metal band; most of their albums are fantastically recorded) - Images and Words, Awake, A Change of Seasons, Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory

Porcupine Tree (Spacious progressive rock in the vein of Pink Floyd, gradually growing a harder edge to Deadwing but still relatively mellow) - Up The Down Stair, Deadwing

Opeth (Progressive death metal. Expect growls, but clean vocals abound as well. Recording quality on recent albums is top knotch. If growls are absolutely a no-no for you, Damnation is an entirely growl-free dark prog rock album)- Still Life, Blackwater Park, Damnation, Ghost Reveries

Spock's Beard - check out their discography, but Beware Of Darkness, The Kindness of Strangers, and Day For Night are especially good albums

The Gathering (Female vocals, progressive rock - quite unique) - How To Measure A Planet

The Flower Kings (Epic progressive rock; think 1970s era King Crimson, Yes) - Adam & Eve

Pain of Salvation (prog metal, but beyond the norm) - Be, The Perfect Element pt. 1, Remedy Lane, One Hour By The Concrete Lake

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Isn't that the way bass is supposed to be? You can't feel bass with headphones after all, they're on your head. To me, all the talk of bass punch, emotion, feeling it, etc. often can be summed up by one term: Boosted.

It's hard to be precise with words especially with my limited English vocabulary but let's try it. It's not boosted and of course you don't feel the bass with the chest, but maybe the bones or cartilages around the ears can help to feel some nice bass with headphone and the ears can hear anyway down to 20Hz or even a good 30Hz that's still very low bass. Bass are not only felt with the bones.

With the HD-650 there's texture, density, the bass can be deep, by deep i mean thick, when the music ask for. It's not thin.
With a real bass or kick drum there's is lot of textures, lot of air is moving, this is not easy to reproduce for a tiny driver's membrane. But the Senn can reproduce this sense of moving air. It's 'small' of course compared to the real thing, but the sound with headphone is 'small' per se. Anyway it's very well integrated respect to the rest of the spectrum. it's not boomy.

A 'thin' bass reproduction would mean maybe you feel the attack but no the decay. There's not lot of 'air' reaching your eardrum.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastergill There's a nice clarity and transparency but a lack of body and flesh to the sound. Well you have the 'sound' but not the life-like texture HD-650 have. Check with some good voices. That makes also the bass lighter than with 650, lacking punch, while bass are very clear with K701. You hear it but you don't feel it.

The lack of body is not a fault of the headphones, it is the audio system's fault. There is no pinpoint imaging in real life, because the images are too big for easy localization.

Bad power and vibration makes it sound thin, bright and lifeless, you can hide this problem with tubes or muddy slow headphones which gives more body and makes it sound more realistic even when there is less detail.
But how you really fix that problem is with power conditioning and isolation devices.

My K1000 has good imaging that shows a sound in the soundstage within 1 cm accuracy, from the point of origin of the sound to the expansion of it (body). Power conditioning gives more information which makes the expansion bigger while keeping the origin the same size (hiding it makes it bigger). Without power conditioning there is no expansion of the sound which makes it sound thin and small.

K1000 can show a 30 cm big ball of bass pounding in front of you that is surrounded by tiny 5 cm bass balls jumping around, but with HD590 there is only mud.
K1000 shows a trumpet as 40 cm in size while HD590 shows it as 3 meters in size, which is too massive and not as realistic (I feel so small). With proper power conditioning I find no major differences between these headphones other than speed. A faster movement of the diaphragm just improves everything, but it makes the point of origin of a sound more pinpoint, which sounds less realistic in most audio systems. That's why so many use tubes with K1000.

The HD650 has better synergy in your system because the images are closer to the size in real life.


P.S. A better interconnect also increases body, because it more accurately shows how the sound expands.

 

[chamix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 The HD650 has better synergy in your system because the images are closer to the size in real life.

Another important point is that Mastergrill don't give the K701 a chance with burn-in, physical nor psychological.
What he means by hear but not feel is basicly clear. The high clamping force from the HD650 is an essential part of this feeling. If you loosen it a bit from your head there is no "feeling the bass" anymore, like all other headhpones with similar constuctions.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamix Another important point is that Mastergrill don't give the K701 a chance with burn-in, physical nor psychological. What he means by hear but not feel is basicly clear. The high clamping force from the HD650 is an essential part of this feeling. If you loosen it a bit from your head there is no "feeling the bass" anymore, like all other headhpones with similar constuctions.

Huh?

How is a tight grip on the head going to increase the "feeling" of bass?

Are you saying that it's the proximity of the drivers to the ears, or that it has something to do with the actual force on the head? I don't hear an extremely punchy bass with my HD580s, and they are tight as well.

 

[Andrea]

How come you call it a "tight grip" ? My head is biggish, I've never streched my 'phones, yet the grip feels right, not tight, to me.

If it were lesser than it is, you couldn't think of wearing the 'phones while lying on a bed. With the HD595, you can't. Probably you can't with the K701, then.

 

[chamix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea How come you call it a "tight grip" ? My head is biggish, I've never streched my 'phones, yet the grip feels right, not tight, to me. If it were lesser than it is, you couldn't think of wearing the 'phones while lying on a bed. With the HD595, you can't. Probably you can't with the K701, then.

As I get my HD650 over one year ago this was one of the first things I've noticed. I was wondering how could a little heaphone produce this "feeling of bass". I've got a "bigger" head, too and for me the grip feels way to strong especially at brand new condition. Therefore I saw the relation between the bass feeling and the tight grip. Everyone could reproduce this very easy. Just loose the grip a bit and the bass (hearing and feeling) will disappear. The reason fore the bass feeling was the contact force only. This seems to be a little trick to me.

In inversion of an argument surely headphones that wasn't capable for such bass couldn't bring this feeling with any tight grip.

The ATH-W5000 is a good example for closed cans. There are many owner who make the point that these phones haven't enoug tight grip and therefore they are a bit bass shy. I must bend mine for the right grip, too.

That all dosn't mean that I think HD650 is not a very good headphone, but for me it couldn't touch the resolution, the enormous grades of colors for reproducing the original character of natural instruments and the definition cababilities overall of the K701. The K701 needs a very dynamic, powerful and fast amp for showing these advantages.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamix As I get my HD650 over one year ago this was one of the first things I've noticed. I was wondering how could a little heaphone produce this "feeling of bass". I've got a "bigger" head, too and for me the grip feels way to strong especially at brand new condition. Therefore I saw the relation between the bass feeling and the tight grip. Everyone could reproduce this very easy. Just loose the grip a bit and the bass (hearing and feeling) will disappear. The reason fore the bass feeling was the contact force only. This seems to be a little trick to me.

I see what you're saying... it isn't the contact force though, it's the distance of the drivers from the ears combined with a "seal" on the head. No way that just a force pressing on your head (by itself) could effect bass or any other frequency. Just pressure? How?

 

[halcyon]

Err... maybe you are talking of the same thing?

Sideways pressure relates to proper seal which directly relates to increased bass.

Having less porous pad material will also increase the bass.

 

[chamix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon Err... maybe you are talking of the same thing? Sideways pressure relates to proper seal which directly relates to increased bass. Having less porous pad material will also increase the bass.

Thanks Halcyon for explaining what I like to say. But the bass feeling or physical effects from HD 650 depends indeed on contact force. If I loosen the contact from L3000 from my head it becomes bass shy, too. The L3000 also have a tight grip, but in contrast to HD650 it didn't feel tight causes of the soft and thick pad material.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Bad power and vibration makes it sound thin, bright and lifeless

Neither of these claims has ever stood up to a blind test, for good reason.

Edit: And before someone tries to say "you have to hear the difference, it isn't measurable

" I've tried to reproduce them myself with power conditioners and vibration controllers, and I can't hear any difference either.

Edit 2: And if anyone thinks "well that's not relevant!

" it absolutely is. Suggesting he spend ridiculous amounts of money for what amounts to absolutely nothing is irresponsible and deplorable.

 

[chamix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Neither of these claims has ever stood up to a blind test, for good reason. Edit: And before someone tries to say "you have to hear the difference, it isn't measurable " I've tried to reproduce them myself with power conditioners and vibration controllers, and I can't hear any difference either. Edit 2: And if anyone thinks "well that's not relevant! " it absolutely is. Suggesting he spend ridiculous amounts of money for what amounts to absolutely nothing is irresponsible and deplorable.

My experiences with power conditioners are basically ambivalent. Some things becomes better other things becomes worse. To handle with power conditioners and power cables allways is a delicate thing and needs much time to find out the optimum.

But I think he like to say that an optimal power is very much relevant to the sound impression overall. A mid class Headphone with peferct powered gear could be clearly more satisfying and involving than a high end can with faulty powered gear, thats my experience, too.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastergill ...don't you think K701 sound like electrostatic headphones? There's a nice clarity and transparency but a lack of body and flesh to the sound. Well you have the 'sound' but not the life-like texture HD-650 have. Check with some good voices. That makes also the bass lighter than with 650, lacking punch, while bass are very clear with K701. You hear it but you don't feel it...à la electrostat...

In some way, yes. The bass is light and airy. Nevertheless, I perceive it as very substantial in the sense of control and definition. That's where electrostats don't excel IMO, although their low-frequency resolution is excellent. Sounds like an antagonism, but that's how I perceive it. And the K 701's bass goes very low, 25 Hz without noticeable drop-off, judged by ear with test tones. It resembles the DT 880 in this regard, also with respect to the airiness. But the K 701's bass seems to «breath» more than the DT 880's, most likely a consequence of the open design (the DT 880 has just a small vent for breathing), and shows better impact and higher dynamics (judged from memory). In terms of texturing quality it reminds me of the SA5000's bass, but it is better integrated to the midrange than with the latter and reaches farther down. Yes, it's less full than the HD 650 (less midbass bloom), in turn the low bass is louder compared to mid- and upper bass than with the latter. So the K 701's bass is quite satisfying to my ears. This after 48 hours of very loud and bass-heavy break-in. (I think this can count as 100 hours of common break-in...

)


Quote:

Not a lot of change at 20 hours. Maybe a little brighter.

Mine is not exactly as bright anymore as it was after 24 hours. Still rather on the bright side, but with some recordings I now have a hard time preferring one of the two headphones. I think what would make the sonic balance ideal would be an increase of the whole range below 2.5 kHz by 1 dB. However, 24 hours before, every time I switched from the K 701 to the HD 650 I appreciated the Senn's qualities even more, such as smoothness and treble delicacy and that certain refinement in the slightly dark and nonetheless highly resolving characteristic. But now the K 701 is beginning to show a similar refinement, an indication being the newly developed brilliance at the upper end resulting in a hinted delicacy which was missing before. And there are moments of almost revelatory experience when I feel to be very close to my sonic ideal: There's a breathtakingly high quality of definition and precision of the tone. I suspect that there's a very slight midrange recession barely perceived as coloration which helps to convey the impression of sharp transients and a certain snappiness as well as an accentuation of contours -- of course combined with really good transient response and cleanness of sound. In turn it still prevents the midrange from sounding equally smooth and refined as the HD 650's (with Silver Dragon cable). But meanwhile it's become clearly harder to prefer the latter. BTW, it's exactly the accurate reproduction of contours (= definition) which I miss with electrostats, whose resolution otherwise is still exemplary.

What's already clear to me is that I will keep the K 701. (And looks don't matter, it's the sound that counts...

)



Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley The HD650 is great with metal and classical...

I agree -- I enjoy both genres equally with it.


Quote:

Grado, little rock beasts that they are, are screechingly sibilant with metal...

I don't listen to classic metal, but A Perfect Circle or Porcupine Tree will do as reference for a metal-like sound characteristic. I think the HD 650 is very substantial and energetic and produces adequate aggressiveness with drum beats and electric guitars. I concede that Grados may still offer a higher lifelikeness thanks to their built-in aggressiveness (due to their resonant treble) and bass punch (due to a low-bandwidth bass resonance) reminding of PA systems in rock concerts; in turn they don't do classical music justice.


Quote:

The requirements aren't "nearly polar opposites."

I think in some way they are. Given that today's sound transducer technology doesn't allow infinite transient accuracy, a headphone with a flat frequency response 60 Hz to 20 kHz (and natural drop-offs below and above) will sound a bit too slow to do really fast attacks absolutely justice. In turn a headphone with a treble spike can very well simulate fast attacks, just as a bass hump can in some way compensate for the natural bass drop-off. Of course this is just as little an adequate substitute for higher demands as high second-order harmonics are a substitute for real (low) bass. The logical downside of both tricks is coloration in the frequency domain, which will especially affect acoustic instruments and classical music in particular.


Quote:

...the HD650 has a slightly humped midbass and midrange, but it handles that sound very well and deftly...

I agree. Although with my loose headband there's not much left of the midbass hump, there's rather a slight low-bass deficit.



Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch ...it isn't the contact force though, it's the distance of the drivers from the ears combined with a "seal" on the head.

Actually you can't speak of a seal (due to a tight earpad/head contact), as the top Sennheisers are virtually completely open designs. The baffle -- the frame holding driver and earpad -- is sound permeable and just covered with a thin fabric with very low acoustic resistance, just slightly increased by the foam pad covering baffle and driver. So what increases the bass is indeed the proximity of the drivers to the ears, e.g. achieved by a high clamping force. This because of the fact that an open baffle allows the rear sound waves -- which have opposite phase relative to the front waves -- to cancel some of the produced sound pressure at large wavelengths*. So the closer the ears to the drivers, the higher the degree of front waves compared to rear waves, thus the lower the low-frequency cancellation effect.

(* With large wavelengths the phase shift resulting from the time the rear wave needs to meet the front wave is minimal compared to short wavelengths -- so the phase difference is still close to 180°.)
.

 

[Nik]

As was for my HD 650, even for the K 701 many hours are a MUST, any declaration before this time is not correct.

My K 701 is starting now to show a warm and "audiophile sound", one of the most refined of all the dynamics cans I have heard.

The most importat improovment I can notice respect to the HD 650 is the BASS, finally so clean and not confused as sometime I heard with the Sennheiser... bass is not boom, boom... but more present respect to the DT 880 (for example).

Just my two cents...

Best!
Nicola

 

[chamix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ So the closer the ears to the drivers, the higher the degree of front waves compared to rear waves, thus the lower the low-frequency cancellation effect. (* With large wavelengths the phase shift resulting from the time the rear wave needs to meet the front wave is minimal compared to short wavelengths -- so the phase difference is still close to 180°.) .

Thank you very much for explaining the technical details for this discussed effect, JaZZ. It was allways a pleasure for me to read something of your profound knowledge in correspondence with your kindly style.

I think it is a question of definition from "feeling the bass". What I mean is lesser the audible deep bass but the extra kick from feeling the bass vibrations of the HD650's clamping force.

The ATH-AD2000 and Grados with flat pads are a very good example for the phase problem solution like you recorded. I really don't like it to touch permanent the driver with my ears. Another reason for me to tend to closed cans.

Best regards,

chamix