[Mach-X]

  Volume pots do degrade sound

Do you have any references or blind test results to prove this?
 

 Most DAPs have average at best internal amps

 
All outputs whether "headphone" or "line" are amplified, or else it would have the volume of a turntable connected directly to an amplifier without a phono stage in between. Funny how we lived with "double amping" for decades and now suddenly it's the bane of the portable audio world. I promise you that if you use a voltmeter and test tone to match the headphone out to the line out, you will never be able to hear a difference.

 

[JK1]

 
I've never tested the battery life using only HD radio, but I can tell you it sounds exactly as you'd expect. What first sticks out is the complete lack of static...you don't realize how much there is even on the best of tuners until it's gone. I live in Windsor so I get loads of stations from Detroit, sometimes I use my Zune for Tigers broadcasts and it sounds great. Would really love a full on HD tuner for the house to also tinker with AM HD but since it was never 'technically' adopted by the CRTC, nor the public at large, really they are impossible to find.
 
 
A headphone output is basically a line out with a volume control...not sure what you mean by this, unless somehow you believe that the volume control 'degrades the sound' in some audible fashion which is ludicrous.
 
Back on topic! The M3 has me extremely interested. Previously was looking at the X1 but now I'm not sure, this nano sized device looks sexy. Power output is more than enough for my needs and the 18 hours of battery would shut me up about battery life in daps. Bring it on! Or wait didn't I hear mention of an M5 somewhere....?

In large cities, major AM stations are simulcast on FM HD stations. I'm hoping there will be several variations of the M3, some with FM radio, and perhaps some with longer battery life.

 

[Lorspeaker]

bluetooth?

 

[batteraziiz]

This ^^^^^

 

[JamesFiiO]

There should have M1 and M5 if the M3 is reach our sales target. so the bluetooth will be in M5. but we have not start the design right now. 

 

[Toom]

If you enjoy charging things often, that is your choice. Many others though don't want to charge as often, and want more flexibility as far as when to charge the player.

And yet the very same people who seemingly can't be bothered to plug a dap in to charge it don't think twice about spending countless hours exploring the minutiae of this website. Presumably from a desktop or laptop with a usb port that could charge their dap.

Oh the ironing.

 

[KT66]

 
Do you have any references or blind test results to prove this?


All outputs whether "headphone" or "line" are amplified, or else it would have the volume of a turntable connected directly to an amplifier without a phono stage in between. Funny how we lived with "double amping" for decades and now suddenly it's the bane of the portable audio world. I promise you that if you use a voltmeter and test tone to match the headphone out to the line out, you will never be able to hear a difference.

Having worked in HI end audio, my chats with designers, manufacturers and engineers all support this. Ask Linn, Naim, Meridian, Audio Note and Croft.
Or do you think all amps sound the same? 


http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/potentiometers.html

 

[WCDchee]

Do you have any references or blind test results to prove this?


All outputs whether "headphone" or "line" are amplified, or else it would have the volume of a turntable connected directly to an amplifier without a phono stage in between. Funny how we lived with "double amping" for decades and now suddenly it's the bane of the portable audio world. I promise you that if you use a voltmeter and test tone to match the headphone out to the line out, you will never be able to hear a difference.

Just to clear things up, the amp is not simply a volume pot. If you look at the hifi world, the volume pot is on the pre amp, which gives the gain as well as volume control. In head Fi, the pre amp and power amp are combined in an integrated amp form.

What does the power amp do? Essentially, the dac puts out anywhere from 1.5-2vrms of signal. This is a high voltage and with most iems will blow your brains out. Our integrated headphone amps have two purposes, firstly, volume control through he potentiometer. The other issue is that with a very small exceptional few, most DACs are designed to only output an extremely tiny current. Can it output a larger current? It can, but the signal starts to deteriorate. That is where the amp comes in. The amp has a very high input impedance in the range of 10k ohms. This allows the signal to be passed from the dac to the amp with minimal deterioration as the current which the dac has to put out is very small. The amplifier takes the signal, and puts out the signal to the iem/headphone which has a much lower resistance (usually between 32-300 ohms) the lower resistance results in a larger current for the same voltage (V=RI). The amplifier is able to provide this larger current without signal deterioration though as it is designed to do thus, the amp section is not simply a volume pot.

However, you are not wrong in saying that double amping is not as bad as people make it out to be even though you did get mixed up about what the amp is. Most amplifier sections are able to put out very good signals at very Low current levels, but as the current output rises the quality of the signal drops (albeit not as badly as with dacs). Based in the above equation, you can see that when you double amp, the the first amplifier (say the one on the m3) would be dealing with an extremely high resistance load putting out a very small current. Thus its effect on the end signal would not be as large as people make it out to be, and amping an amped signal can actually improve it.

If you try out the iBasso dx50 and 90, you'll realise that the volume control affects the line out too

Is here a difference between the sound of the line out and the headphone out, yes, definitely. It sounds different enough to be able to pick out without guessing. If you simply plug your headphones in, the difference will be very very stark. And the line out will sound pretty crappy most of the time as making the dac put out a large current like that causes massive signal deterioration. If you amp a line out and a headphone out though, differences become smaller. However, it is definitely still very audible.

 

[JK1]

And yet the very same people who seemingly can't be bothered to plug a dap in to charge it don't think twice about spending countless hours exploring the minutiae of this website. Presumably from a desktop or laptop with a usb port that could charge their dap.

Oh the ironing.

Using a pc and charging a player are two separate unrelated events. As I said before, some people like to keep a player in a gym locker, and take it home to charge very infrequently9less than once a month). Each time it is taken home to charge, there is a chance that they will forget to bring it with them next time they go to the gym. The best solution to this is to have a player that uses an inexpensive easily swappable battery that can be charged a few at a time outside the player. Perhaps a AA or AAA nimh battery, or a 18650 Lion battery(why hasn't a smaller battery than the 18650 emerged as a second standard for an inexpensive, easily swappable battery?) The 18650 is now a standard battery which many LED flashlights use.

 

[Toom]

Using a pc and charging a player are two separate unrelated events. As I said before, some people like to keep a player in a gym locker, and take it home to charge very infrequently9less than once a month). Each time it is taken home to charge, there is a chance that they will forget to bring it with them next time they go to the gym. The best solution to this is to have a player that uses an inexpensive easily swappable battery that can be charged a few at a time outside the player. Perhaps a AA or AAA nimh battery, or a 18650 Lion battery(why hasn't a smaller battery than the 18650 emerged as a second standard for an inexpensive, easily swappable battery?) The 18650 is now a standard battery which many LED flashlights use.

If you're too weak and lazy to take a tiny portable music player home with you, maybe the gym ain't working.

 

[JK1]

  There should have M1 and M5 if the M3 is reach our sales target. so the bluetooth will be in M5. but we have not start the design right now. 

M1? A player even less expensive than the basic $40 to $50 M3???? How could that be accomplished? No internal storage? If the M5 has bluetooth, and if it gets 25 hours of battery life using bluetooth, then it might get 40+ hours with the bluetooth off?

 

[HiFiChris]

 

  There should have M1 and M5 if the M3 is reach our sales target. so the bluetooth will be in M5. but we have not start the design right now. 

M1? A player even less expensive than the basic $40 to $50 M3???? How could that be accomplished? No internal storage? If the M5 has bluetooth, and if it gets 25 hours of battery life using bluetooth, then it might get 40+ hours with the bluetooth off?

I also thought of how they'd make the M1 even less expensive. My guess: it is something like an iPod shuffle, therefore without a screen.

 

[Toom]

I also thought of how they'd make the M1 even less expensive. My guess: it is something like an iPod shuffle, therefore without a screen.

Like the Tera but without having to sell your internal organs

 

[JamesFiiO]

All our M series will includes build in storage and screen, headphones otherwise it is not good for customers. maybe audiophiles don't care about this. 

 

[Podster]

  Using a pc and charging a player are two separate unrelated events. As I said before, some people like to keep a player in a gym locker, and take it home to charge very infrequently9less than once a month). Each time it is taken home to charge, there is a chance that they will forget to bring it with them next time they go to the gym. The best solution to this is to have a player that uses an inexpensive easily swappable battery that can be charged a few at a time outside the player. Perhaps a AA or AAA nimh battery, or a 18650 Lion battery(why hasn't a smaller battery than the 18650 emerged as a second standard for an inexpensive, easily swappable battery?) The 18650 is now a standard battery which many LED flashlights use.

Even with triple A you are going to increase the chassis size of most players and take away from that tiny factor! My suggestion on the forgetting of the player on the charger is a Post-it note

In my case if a DAP held a 25 hour playing charge it would last me a full month at the gym as I'm extremely lucky if I get 25 hours a month at the gym working out at 1 hour increments. If you turn your player off after every workout I don't see why it would not last a month at the gym per charge? The other problem for me would be keeping up with charged and uncharged batteries! Just my .02 perspective on it