[MalVeauX]

 
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Hey MalVeauX - didn't see your post appear as I was just typing up my reply to Mad Lust Envy; thanks for the feedback. I do not consider the E10 capable at all of fully driving the HE-500, but the E11 is another story altogether. Since you have both the HE-500 and the E11, the proof is in the pudding. Just hook up the E11 to a portable preferably via a line-out-dock and try your Hifiman through it. Make sure your E11 is on high gain and also switch the power option underneath the battery to high power ... if you haven't tried it this way you're in for a surprise. I'm not sure myself how this little amp can drive such a hefty HP so authoritatively (but it does).
 
Again, it is the E11 that is really the subject of this thread, the other parts (E17/E9) are simply a necessary step to get from digital to analog and can be swapped with something else though I do prefer the AC powered Fiio Dac (sounds fuller and more present). See my post above - I am looking at the Audio-gd NFB-12.1 as a very viable option. Have you tried this with the HE-500?

 
Heya,
 
I have put the E11 through it. Sure it makes volume. But it's not quality power, it's not fully driven. When I do a 30hz tone through Audiacity, it's clearly not able to power it the way my more powerful amps can. And the E10 is very similar in power output as the E17. Seriously, putting 150mw or even 300mw (which they do not do) is not fully driving an HE-500. Just because it has volume enough to listen to and even sounds ok doesn't mean you're getting every ounce out of your HE-500's worth. Now I'm not saying you have to spend $1000 to drive your headphone. Not at all. But this isn't magic and there's a reason the headphones have sensitivity and impedance ratings so that you can figure how much power is needed, and a reason why a pHD engineer who made the headphone specifically recommends a specific level of power output to properly drive the headphone he designed. It's not in milliwatts. And when I listen through one of those little amps compared to some higher powered amps, there's a difference, and that difference is the kind of thing you listen for when you're bothering to spend to get into high-end audio in the first place.
 
By the way, the NFB12.1 is a great option for the HE-500. Lots of power, more than enough, and a decent DAC. For it's cost, there's not much better honestly and it's a great way to go high-end with the HE-500 and have it fully driven properly.
 
Very best,
 

 

[Terja]

 
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Heya,
 
I have put the E11 through it. Sure it makes volume. But it's not quality power, it's not fully driven. When I do a 30hz tone through Audiacity, it's clearly not able to power it the way my more powerful amps can. And the E10 is very similar in power output as the E17. Seriously, putting 150mw or even 300mw (which they do not do) is not fully driving an HE-500. Just because it has volume enough to listen to and even sounds ok doesn't mean you're getting every ounce out of your HE-500's worth. Now I'm not saying you have to spend $1000 to drive your headphone. Not at all. But this isn't magic and there's a reason the headphones have sensitivity and impedance ratings so that you can figure how much power is needed, and a reason why a pHD engineer who made the headphone specifically recommends a specific level of power output to properly drive the headphone he designed. It's not in milliwatts. And when I listen through one of those little amps compared to some higher powered amps, there's a difference, and that difference is the kind of thing you listen for when you're bothering to spend to get into high-end audio in the first place.
 
By the way, the NFB12.1 is a great option for the HE-500. Lots of power, more than enough, and a decent DAC. For it's cost, there's not much better honestly and it's a great way to go high-end with the HE-500 and have it fully driven properly.
 
Very best,
 

 

Here's the thing though MalVeauX, I've tried the HE-500 with the Hifiman EF5 (a Hifiman product no less) and it did not drive the HE-500 properly at all. Yes the power was there but the resolution and detail was so so far behind the E11. This was during the same listening session. The Bellari HA540 also performed better with the HE-500 than the EF5, but I would still put it behind the E11 in terms of performance. Now to the NFB12.1 - if it can perform better than the E11 with the HE-500 I will be really impressed. Specs are one thing, performance is entirely another, because I can attest that the E11 performs outside its specs; it's more than OK in my view - it is very good. Still it is worth it to give the HE-500 the power it is specified for to see how it performs - the NFB12.1 is a very good candidate, thanks for pointing it out; I'm shying away from the Lyr.
 
PS - What is your take on the HE-500/Lyr combo? I'm looking for the x-factors here ...

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I didn't love the Lyr, but I do love my NFB-5, which is a step up from the NFB12, but with similar power specs and better internals. No way that the NFB5 can't handle any of the Hifiman Orthos outside of maybe the HE-6... but then that thing needs a nuclear facility so...

Audio-GD products pump out a crapton of power.

 

[Voohoo]

Haha, the whole time reading this thread I was really scratching my head at your E17/E9/E11 setup. It defies DAC+amping conventions/logic!
 
I'm really glad that someone mentioned to use the L7 line-out adapter. The E9 in your setup was a waste of space! You mentioned that you liked to adjust volume from the E9 but it's widely recommended that you AWLAYS adjust volume with the last link/box in the chain...in your case it would be the E11, and leave the E9 at max (unless it clips or anything). 
 
Anyway, I really recommend you stick with E17/L7/E11...that is, if you prefer the E11 as your amp.
 
But, with all of the hardware you have, it would make sense to use E17/E9 and THAT'S IT. However, I see you prefer the sound from your E11 so that's all that matters I guess. 
 
I would strongly advise taking MalVeaux's advice. I, too, believe you're not properly driving your HE-500. I have the EF-5 driving my HE-4. My FiiO E9 cannot match up to the EF-5. The EF-5 should definitely drive the HE-500 better than the E11. But in the end it all boils down to what YOU hear. And my guess is that you just didn't like the sound signature/synergy of the HE-500 and EF-5. 

 

[Terja]

Hey thanks Voohoo. My E11 battery was dead just a few minutes ago and I was listening via my Bellari HA540. I just plugged the E11 back in (finished charging .. woo hoo!) - and yes I really like the sound (i can't say just how much I was missing it

; what was that, all of an hour or so, oh so long). I just don't know why I really groove to this little guy, it's so close to what I would consider my sweet spot. Yeah the E9 is somewhat redundant in this setup when using the L7 with the E17. I think the SQ is somewhat cleaner via the L7 actually. Both you and MalVeaux are right of course, I haven't yet really pumped enough power through the HE-500 (except with the EF5 which didn't really do much for me). I will have to find a good power match for it some time soon - thinking of the Audio-gd NFB12.1 as a good candidate to replace my Bellari on the desk.
 

 

[Terja]

 
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I didn't love the Lyr, but I do love my NFB-5, which is a step up from the NFB12, but with similar power specs and better internals. No way that the NFB5 can't handle any of the Hifiman Orthos outside of maybe the HE-6... but then that thing needs a nuclear facility so...
Audio-GD products pump out a crapton of power.

 

How would you describe the Audio-gd sound signature in general. I'm sure it varies from equipment to equipment; but would I be in for a nasty shock or are we talking genuine audiophileo here?

 

[SHP53]

 
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Yes the E9 has gobs of power; but the reason for power is to be able to get to your normal listening volume and both of these amps have more than sufficient power to get you there. Once you've reached your level that's where SQ comes in. The E11 just picks up more detail along the way and presents it with more warmth than the E9 which in comparison sounds somewhat rolled off across the spectrum. The E9 doesn't sound as resolved as the E11. And of course it doesn't help the E9 that the E11 can be EQed; the E11 bass boost really makes a difference for some presentations. I have never felt the E9 has been able to take advantage of the capabilities of the Hifiman HE-500; just always seems like there is something missing, something the amp is leaves behind.
 
 

 
Ok that helped clear things up. So the reason why the E9 does not sound as well as the E11 is because the HE-500 are very sensitive? In other words, the more sensitive a headphone is, giving too much power for it (FiiO E9) will make it sound worse than a weaker-in-power-amp E11? And for less sensitive amps the E9 will drive better than an E11?

 

[jono454]

 
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Haha, the whole time reading this thread I was really scratching my head at your E17/E9/E11 setup. It defies DAC+amping conventions/logic!
 
I'm really glad that someone mentioned to use the L7 line-out adapter. The E9 in your setup was a waste of space! You mentioned that you liked to adjust volume from the E9 but it's widely recommended that you AWLAYS adjust volume with the last link/box in the chain...in your case it would be the E11, and leave the E9 at max (unless it clips or anything). 
 
Anyway, I really recommend you stick with E17/L7/E11...that is, if you prefer the E11 as your amp.
 
But, with all of the hardware you have, it would make sense to use E17/E9 and THAT'S IT. However, I see you prefer the sound from your E11 so that's all that matters I guess. 
 
I would strongly advise taking MalVeaux's advice. I, too, believe you're not properly driving your HE-500. I have the EF-5 driving my HE-4. My FiiO E9 cannot match up to the EF-5. The EF-5 should definitely drive the HE-500 better than the E11. But in the end it all boils down to what YOU hear. And my guess is that you just didn't like the sound signature/synergy of the HE-500 and EF-5. 

 
I have a similar setup to what you have..e9/e17 as a little DAC setup and the EF-5 as an amp. I also have the L7 for the E17 which i'm not using. I found that the sound coming from the E9 as a dock was better than the sound coming from the E17 with the L7 so i stuck with that and now i have a L7 laying around hah. 
 
One thing though...i think the E9 + E17 on the desk looks awesome though...where as the E17 with a L7 looks kind of funny just laying there haha
 
I'm currently using this setup (computer-->E17/E9 (DAC via 3.5mm to RCA) --->EF-5 -->DT990/600ohm and K702. Before i got my EF-5 i thought the E17/E9 was able to power my K702s and DT990s pretty well so based on that i figure it would do your HE-500 some justice as well..but then again i've never heard the HE-500 so i'm just assuming this based on the fact that the DT990s are hard to drive. 
With the EF-5 thrown in the mix...everything just became...AWESOME but i do wonder if changing the DAC into something like the HRT music streamer 2, ODAC (not out yet but i hear good things), or the dacmagic will significantly improve my setup.

 

[Terja]

 
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One thing though...i think the E9 + E17 on the desk looks awesome though...where as the E17 with a L7 looks kind of funny just laying there haha

 
+1 - E9/E17 sure does look 'purdy' much more than the E7/E9 ever did. You may be right about the combo as a DAC; I personally put it down to it being AC powered; but with that said, I am finding the SQ coming out of the E17 with the L7 very clean and smooth. It doesn't have some of the detail the E9/E17 combo brings to the table though. The L7 SQ is sweet and non-fatiguing, good for marathons.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

 
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I didn't love the Lyr, but I do love my NFB-5, which is a step up from the NFB12, but with similar power specs and better internals. No way that the NFB5 can't handle any of the Hifiman Orthos outside of maybe the HE-6... but then that thing needs a nuclear facility so...
Audio-GD products pump out a crapton of power.

 

How would you describe the Audio-gd sound signature in general. I'm sure it varies from equipment to equipment; but would I be in for a nasty shock or are we talking genuine audiophileo here?

The NFB5 is my first Audio GD product, and its an amp/dac, so I'm not sure what is giving the most 'sound signature', but I'd say...

It has a full bodied sound (my E9 sounds thin next to it, even with easy to drive headphones).

The most noticeable thing is the very slight hint of softening in the treble region. I stress slight, in comparison to what I've heard. The E9 can be harsh, and the Lyr (with two sets of tubes I used) sounded even softer than the NFB5.

I think that's a house signature unless they specify 'wire with gain'. So I'd say, that if you like a hint of smoothness added to treble, then it will work for you. Both my main headphones have emphasized treble (D7000 and Q701), so they match well with the NFB5. IF I had a smooth headphone, I'd probably not like it, but I like sparkle, so YMMV. I actually bought the Moon op-amp, but it honestly didn't make any real difference. I just stick to using the ACSS option.

In short: It sounds rich and organic, and not digital.

 

[Terja]

 
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Ok that helped clear things up. So the reason why the E9 does not sound as well as the E11 is because the HE-500 are very sensitive? In other words, the more sensitive a headphone is, giving too much power for it (FiiO E9) will make it sound worse than a weaker-in-power-amp E11? And for less sensitive amps the E9 will drive better than an E11?

 
Actually SHP53 the HE-500 aren't very sensitive, which is part of the reason why they are hard to drive. Even though they have relatively low impedance measurements (38 - 50 ohms) and should therefore be easy to drive, it is their relative lack of sensitivity that makes them a tough baby to toss in order to get that squeal of joy (..eek). They require more push to get them going. As far as the E11 vs E9 is concerned, the E9 power output range is (1W for 16ohm - 80mW for 600ohm) while the E11 on high voltage outputs (300mW for 16ohm - 35mW for 300ohm) - Fiio's figures. Obviously the E9 has a higher power range than the E11 but the thing is you may not need the entire range to get to your comfortable listening level, the reserve is redundant unless you need it. What counts is how the range that is needed is utilized and I think the E11 does a better job than the E9 in utilizing the active range. Not sure of all the technicalities but I reckon it has to do with differences in amplifier chip application.
 
PS - more to your point; yes the more sensitive the HPs are the less power they require to drive them properly, but in turn, the more quickly they tend to distort when fed power whereas less sensitive HPs do not tend to distort at similar levels. The more power an amp has relative to a highly sensitive HP the smaller the useable listening range, which is why sensitive HPs do not tend to mesh well with high power amps.

 

[Terja]

 
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The NFB5 is my first Audio GD product, and its an amp/dac, so I'm not sure what is giving the most 'sound signature', but I'd say...
It has a full bodied sound (my E9 sounds thin next to it, even with easy to drive headphones).
The most noticeable thing is the very slight hint of softening in the treble region. I stress slight, in comparison to what I've heard. The E9 can be harsh, and the Lyr (with two sets of tubes I used) sounded even softer than the NFB5.
I think that's a house signature unless they specify 'wire with gain'. So I'd say, that if you like a hint of smoothness added to treble, then it will work for you. Both my main headphones have emphasized treble (D7000 and Q701), so they match well with the NFB5. IF I had a smooth headphone, I'd probably not like it, but I like sparkle, so YMMV. I actually bought the Moon op-amp, but it honestly didn't make any real difference. I just stick to using the ACSS option.
In short: It sounds rich and organic, and not digital.

 
"In short: It sounds rich and organic, and not digital.:" Nice ... sounds really promising, just my kind of vibe. That is somewhat of the SQ I am getting from the HE-500 out of the E11; I think the clouds are parting a little; perhaps I should take advantage of the promo pricing for the NFB12.1 on right now before the window closes. Thanks for a very informative mini-review of your NFB5.

 

[Voohoo]

Terja, another thing to take note of is amping a dynamic headphone vs a planar magnetic. From my very limited experience, I think there are differences between the two give the nature of their respective technologies. My old Ultrasones saw drastic changes in its sound when using stronger/weaker amps. With my HE-4 I have not experienced it. I believe orthos behave differently from dynamics in the way they are amped. But idk, it's just a theory.
 
Just something to think about as you continue experimenting with your amps.
 
Btw, I'm not sure if upgrading your E17 will make that much of a difference. Unless you're investing in a realllllyyyy nice one, I doubt you'll hear an upgrade from the ones you mentioned. Instead you should really invest in amps. It seems you're in a quirky/experimental stage so it would be best to find amp(s) that really go well with your HE-500. Then when you have exhausted that phase and found your amps with the best synergy, only at this point would I worry about upgrading the DAC for that EXTRA tweaking. The E17 is already excellent (from what I hear), and I plan to get one myself. 

 

[Terja]

Yeah orthos are different animals altogether, and that's part of the challenge of finding the right amps for them - I don't think its entirely about power. I'm not really looking to upgrade my DAC section, it just happens that the NFB12.1 I'm thinking of includes a DAC but I am really aiming for its amp section. Even if I were to get a standalone amp with similar amp specs it would probably cost the same, so it's just a bonus. I'm worried though whether I could use the NFB12.1 as an external amp, its input options seem limited. The only amps I can see out there for orthos that do not require breaking the bank are the Lyr and the NFB12. Maybe I haven't dug far enough - but are there others?

 

[Terja]

The NFB6 looks very promising. Still no real reviews out there on it although there is a thread going on here --> http://www.head-fi.org/t/606120/audio-gd-nfb6 . Will wait to see what the verdict is. I think I will skip the NFB12.1 mostly because I do not need a DAC and also if I keep it separate I can always update it later. Thank you all for your handsome feedback

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