[EdgeDC]

Good explanation from Mojo thread on why double amping might not be such a big of a deal after all.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...ge-95-of-thread.885405/page-291#post-16967997

Interesting, thanks for sharing that - but the key is to still produce a "line level" output from the DAC though, right? At the very least, offering a fixed-volume setting that configures the built-in amp to provide a consistent line level signal that is optimal for external amplification.

 

[Jeff Graw]

In UAC mode, it does not support computer-driven mic,

Would be a small nicety, but not a big loss.

In Bluetooth mode, can only use the BTR7 mic

This, on the other hand, is a bit lame.

 

[Jeff Graw]

Slightly larger than BTR7(sic)

According to released specs:

BTR5 / BTR5 2021: 72mm x 32mm x 11.1mm (excluding back clip)
BTR7: 83.6mm x 39.6 mm x 14.2mm (presumably also excluding back clip)

So the BTR7 will be 11.6mm longer, 7.6mm wider and 3.1mm thicker than the BTR5 / BTR5 2021.

84% larger by volume. If EdgeDC has the correct numbers, that's anything but slight.

 

[EdgeDC]

84% larger by volume. If EdgeDC has the correct numbers, that's anything but slight.

Well to be fair, they had to make more room the notably larger screen and also the 4.4mm balanced jack (the BTR5 only has a tiny 2.5mm balanced jack - both have a 3.5mm SE jack, of course).

 

[Jeff Graw]

Well to be fair, they had to make more room the notably larger screen and also the 4.4mm balanced jack (the BTR5 only has a tiny 2.5mm balanced jack - both have a 3.5mm SE jack, of course).

For sure. Not an excuse for dishonesty though, again, if the above numbers are accurate.

 

[EdgeDC]

For sure. Not an excuse for dishonesty though, again, if the above numbers are accurate.

That’s a bit harsh, IMO. The word “slightly” is somewhat subjective, and volume will of course increase exponentially compared to the individual distance measurements.

I don’t think it’s that much bigger (subjectively) in the scheme of things, and I don’t think FiiO Wilson intended to deceive.

 

[Jeff Graw]

That’s a bit harsh, IMO. The word “slightly” is somewhat subjective, and volume will of course increase exponentially compared to the individual distance measurements.

I don’t think it’s that much bigger (subjectively) in the scheme of things, and I don’t think FiiO Wilson intended to deceive.

An iPhone 13 Pro Max is 42% larger than an iPhone SE. No one--absolutely no one--would say the former is slightly larger than the later, except facetiously or ignorantly or dishonestly. It's a substantial difference in size which also feels substantial. To get from the one to the other, you need to cross several size categories. We're talking twice again that increase. Once more, assuming your dimensions are accurate (and don't include the clip) there's no way to interpret an 84% size increase as "slight," and no universe where trying to pass it off as that could be interpreted as honest. It's nowhere close to the realm of subjective license.

 

[ClieOS]

Interesting, thanks for sharing that - but the key is to still produce a "line level" output from the DAC though, right? At the very least, offering a fixed-volume setting that configures the built-in amp to provide a consistent line level signal that is optimal for external amplification.

There is no hard industrial definition of what 'line level' has to be. Besides the fact that most will agree that a line level signal should be the cleanest signal a device can offer, most companies just make up their own number / voltage. Before the age of iPod, most audio companies used 2V as standard. But iPod was so popular that the industry started to follow Apple to lower their line-out to 1V, then to 0.5V (which was basically what Apple offered on their iPod's line-out dock). After iPod is gone, these days you will find different voltage all over the place. Chord for an example like to use 3V, which will most definitely clip most older amp that was made to follow the Apple's standard. Generally speaking, 2V is still the most common choice due to legacy reason but it really depends on the manufacturer.

Now going back to BTR7 - since we want the cleanest signal (= lowest distortion / highest SNR) for double amping, the measurement done by L7Audio lab already shows us that it should be around 1.2V or so on single-ended or 2V for balanced output.

 

[EdgeDC]

An iPhone 13 Pro Max is 42% larger than an iPhone SE. No one--absolutely no one--would say the former is slightly larger than the later, except facetiously or ignorantly or dishonestly. It's a substantial difference in size which also feels substantial. To get from the one to the other, you need to cross several size categories. We're talking twice again that increase. Once more, assuming your dimensions are accurate (and don't include the clip) there's no way to interpret an 84% size increase as "slight," and no universe where trying to pass it off as that could be interpreted as honest. It's nowhere close to the realm of subjective license.

Looking at it another way, the BTR7 is:

• 16% longer
• 24% wider
• 28% thicker

...than the BTR5. It's not insignificant, no. Me though? I'll reserve judgement until I see it in person, or at least pics & video alongside a BTR5. It's a matter of relative perspective and personal priorities. The way I see it, the BTR7 is both notably better featured and more powerful than the BTR5, so I don't personally begrudge the size increase that is listed. You apparently do. Fair enough.

In any case, it's all academic - if you don't like the size, don't buy one, right?

 

[EdgeDC]

There is no hard industrial definition of what 'line level' has to be. Besides the fact that most will agree that a line level signal should be the cleanest signal a device can offer, most companies just make up their own number / voltage. Before the age of iPod, most audio companies used 2V as standard. But iPod was so popular that the industry started to follow Apple to lower their line-out to 1V, then to 0.5V (which was basically what Apple offered on their iPod's line-out dock). After iPod is gone, these days you will find different voltage all over the place. Chord for an example like to use 3V, which will most definitely clip most older amp that was made to follow the Apple's standard. Generally speaking, 2V is still the most common choice due to legacy reason but it really depends on the manufacturer.

Now going back to BTR7 - since we want the cleanest signal (= lowest distortion / highest SNR) for double amping, the measurement done by L7Audio lab already shows us that it should be around 1.2V or so on single-ended or 2V for balanced output.

Thank you for that clarification. Using L7Audio's measurements then - FiiO making an optional mode available in the BTR7 that locks in those voltages specifically for double amp scenarios (such as the car stereo) would be nice, would it not?

 

[Jeff Graw]

The way I see it, the BTR7 is both notably better featured _and_ more powerful than the BTR5, so I don't personally begrudge the size increase that is listed. You apparently do.

I begrudge dishonesty from manufacturers, as well as overly permissive audiophiles who help to enable predatory practices. There's a reason this industry is littered with exploitation and snake oil, and we consumers are one half of that equation.

Notice I never begrudged the size increase. I never said "this is too big to fit the portable role" or anything of that nature. Whether the size and price increases are justified will come down to performance, characteristics, and also individual use case. I only took umbrage with a rep describing an obviously substantial size increase (assuming listed dimensions are accurate) as "slight."

 

[Andrew_WOT]

I actually like that it's bigger than toy size ES100 or BTR5. Seems like it will be close to UP5 size wise.
But may be we should let this "slightly bigger" go and discuss other aspects. Fiio posted dimension, whether it's slightly or not slightly bigger is subjective.

 

[EdgeDC]

I begrudge dishonesty from manufacturers, as well as overly permissive audiophiles who help to enable predatory practices. There's a reason this industry is littered with exploitation and snake oil, and we consumers are one half of that equation.

Notice I never begrudged the size increase. I never said "this is too big to fit the portable role" or anything of that nature. Whether the size and price increases are justified will come down to performance, characteristics, and also individual use case. I only took umbrage with a rep describing an obviously substantial size increase (assuming listed dimensions are accurate) as "slight."

Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing the words "slightly larger" as predatory, especially when the dimensions are clearly published.

Could he have chosen a more appropriate adjective? Sure - "a bit larger", "somewhat larger", etc. However IMO you are going a long way further in your accusation over a simple descriptive term.

 

[Jeff Graw]

Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing the words "slightly larger" as predatory, especially when the dimensions are clearly published.

You're fallaciously mixing and matching.

I asserted that if the specs are accurate, then "slightly increased" is a dishonest description, which is true.

I asserted that overly permissive audiophiles enable predatory behavior. Also true. Lesson being, don't be too permissive.

I did not assert that describing the size increase dishonestly was predatory. You could make the argument, but the phrasing would be disproportionate to the possible transgression.

I felt no need to post anything after "84% is hardly slight" by the way. This is dragging on because we're responding to one another.

 

[ClieOS]

I think everything is relative to individual's prospective. If we were comparing BTR7 to BTR5 and Q7, then yes, BTR7 is slightly bigger than BTR5. If we were comparing BTR7 to BTR5 and BTR3, then obviously BTR7 seems significantly larger.

All prospective.