[Rhamnetin]

For me M17 functionality was perfect. I just hope FIIO focus on getting the tonality little more friendly for longer seesion.

That's what the PEQ is for. Considering the ES9038PRO DACs and the THX amplifiers, the M17 probably has insanely low distortion levels and its default frequency response is almost certainly ruler flat even beyond the audible band, in order to put the user in control of tonality with the built-in PEQ (and via headphone choice).

 

[Killedkella]

I hope for a KA12 in the same style of the KA11 but with a balanced 4.4mm… Those barely exist on the market!

 

[FiiO]

(4) Desktop Music Player

Since the launch of FIIO's first desktop player, the R7, designed for desktop use in early 2023, it has become a favorite among consumers as possibly the world's only streaming digital audio player with an open Android system.

At the end of 2023, FIIO continued its efforts and released the flagship all-in-one digital media streamer R9. With significant improvements in specifications, performance, configuration, interfaces, and design compared to the R7, the R9 is currently in hot sale.

Therefore, following tradition, both the R7 and R9 will continue regular production and sales throughout 2024. Don’t worry if you are interested in them.

At the same time, we have received a considerable amount of suggestions and feedback, with two main points of focus:

1. The R7/R9 combines streaming digital audio, decoding, and headphone amplification in one, making it suitable for desktop scenarios with speakers/headphones. However, many audiophiles need a streaming digital audio player for the living room, serving as an audio source for speaker systems, paired with DAC/Amps.

2. The R7/R9 is designed vertically due to the consideration that many apps do not support landscape mode. However, traditional HiFi systems in the living room generally have a horizontal design. So, it will not be so harmonious in terms of appearance matching and placement.

Therefore, we are also considering developing another parallel product line with a more traditional streaming digital audio player. The tentative model is named S15, and the product overview is as follows:

(1) Still based on the Android operating system. However, due to the orientation of the display screen, some streaming media apps may not be supported.

(2) Adopts a traditional horizontal design with standard 1 DIN width (430CM) for better compatibility with existing power amplifiers.

(3) Provides rich analog/digital outputs to facilitate users in connecting various DACs, power amplifiers, etc.

(4) Features a variety of control modes, including remote control, smartphone control, on-device touchscreen, knobs, etc.

The attached image is not the final design and is for reference only. The expected release is in the fall of 2024, with a pricing positioning in the mid-range category.

 

[LFC_SL]

Far greater internal cooling solutions, when using external power, for the M27, without using external accessories.

Or component manufacturers get together to design parts that are cooler / more thermal efficient? I think there is an analogy with the gaming laptop space that instead of designing cooling around desktop components, gaming laptops started to get really good and interesting only in recent years as we saw powerful but thermally efficient mobile chips (not looking to start a whole discussion on laptops)

 

[TheOneInYellow]

Or component manufacturers get together to design parts that are cooler / more thermal efficient? I think there is an analogy with the gaming laptop space that instead of designing cooling around desktop components, gaming laptops started to get really good and interesting only in recent years as we saw powerful but thermally efficient mobile chips (not looking to start a whole discussion on laptops)

I agree on principle, and would certainly be amazing for multiple tech industries, but there are considerations to take into account.
First and foremost, competition and individual growth of a component company can stifle collaboration. Ditto patents and/or trade secrets (neither are the same), current contracts with manufacturers, legislation, and (unfortunately further) geopolitical elements.

Some companies have to collaborate, such as screen, RAM, storage, and Bluetooth chip manufacturers (there are only a few manufacturers who make these).
However, this is more to do with big industrial contracts, to sell component products fairly under multiple trade laws, rather than true collaboration.

Of course, it would be wonderful if some component manufacturers do work together for a common goal, but it could also be seen as a threat or monopoly by another manufacturer. And the (fear of) risk to losing potential in-house manufacturing information and techniques via mishandled management or staff on such collaborations can also stifle such innovation.
It's a complicated area of conversation, unfortunately.

---

Just to add, despite my feature want of well a cooled M27 self contained without an external accessory (if using external DC input power), I also understand how challenging the request is.

FiiO has a target demographic in mind. Despite the FiiO M17 not priced in similar brackets as other TOTL mega buck DAP's, it's components and features are directly as rich and competitive.
FiiO could have priced the M17 by following the market, but decided not to, and priced aggressively at what they thought was fair to their audience. The M27 will cost more than the M17, but I doubt it would cost as much as current TOTL DAP's.
Why is this important? If the M27 does use laptop or smartphone inspired cooling solutions, then the M27 will be very expensive, and could alienate the FiiO consumers.
Of course, we shall see if they go down this route, but looking at their points of low frequency to update when there is not much to update/upgrade in the first place, I'm not sure FiiO would want to charge excessively more for the M27 vs M17...

More considerations:

• A DAP is smaller in volume to any laptop. This is still challenging to use efficient cooling methods whilst engineering components to be isolated (for noise and other audio related reductions) and amount of audio-related components integrated.
• The biggest heat issue for a DAP that uses desktop class components is mostly around the amp, or amp and DAC section. These are both power sapping and bigger heat generators than a SoC CPU. This may seem similar to a modern smartphone, but part of what makes those so expensive is cooling efficiency engineering; a TOTL DAP using desktop audio grade components with smartphone or laptop cooling would, therefore, be monstrous cost-wise.
• Sheer weight and size. The current desktop R9 has much of the M17 components and design elements, and the M27 is, as per this thread, far closer (2x ESS ES9038PRO and 4x THX 788+). However, R9 is physically larger and has other ways to reduce cooling as such. To repack much of the R9 into the M27 (without RCA and HDMI outputs, amongst other changes) is incredible and daunting. Based of the M17, it's doable, but managing heat in a small package will be a nightmare.

I hope FiiO does find novel solutions to my, and perhaps others, request for better cooling, but I also understand how crazy the M17 currently is and the M27 will be.
No other TOTL DAP has external input power, yet, and this makes M17 unique and not limited by current, so heat generation and cooling are unique issues to that DAP. (Other DAP's are current limited by battery safety features, so are not comparable to the M17 with DC input).

 

[FiiO]

(5) Portable DAC and Headphone Amplifier

Today's product line might be a bit disappointing because FIIO hasn't planned for new products in this category for 2024. Therefore, the product line will still consist of the Q11, Q3, Q15, and Q7.

The main reason is that the market for portable DAC/Amps is shrinking.

In the mid-to-low-end market, with improved performance and functionality as well as higher output power of FIIO's dongle DACs and Bluetooth DAC/Amps, low-end models become less competitive. For example, the KA17 has robust output power and stronger functions than that of the Q11 and Q3. Bluetooth DAC/Amps like the BTR7, are challenging products like the Q15 in functionality even with slightly lower performance and configurations.

However, the user experience of the USB dongles and Bluetooth DAC/Amps is better than that of portable DAC/Amps, and they usually have an advantage in body size and weight.

In the high-end market, FIIO's mid-to-high-end music players also feature powerful USB decoding and amplifying functions. They can also be used independently without a phone and provide a much better operational experience. Therefore, the high-end market for portable DAC/Amps is also limited.

As Bluetooth DAC/Amps are usually bundled with smartphones, the most significant issue currently is the user experience.

Therefore, we have decided not to develop new models until we find better technical solutions. Existing models, including the Q11, Q3, Q15, and Q7, will continue production and sales. When the market demand drops to an unsustainable level, relevant models will naturally be discontinued.

Furthermore, regarding the demand from many consumers for portable DAC/Amps to feature local playback functionality, we have conducted market research and experienced related products. It indeed satisfies some users' needs.

However, due to the small screens and relatively weak processor performance of such products (usually using Ingenic's X1000 or X2000), the user experience of a player is not comfortable enough. For example, it's challenging to quickly find the desired song in a large number of songs. If the screen is enlarged, due to insufficient processor performance, both display refresh rate and support for high resolution cannot be well-executed.

Also, these products cannot adopt the Android system, so they inevitably fall behind Android players with large screens in terms of streaming media support and user experience.

Therefore, with limited resources and no shortage of projects, we choose to invest our research and development resources into products that have a broader market and better meet consumer needs.

What is more, such products already exist in the market. We cannot make everything. Instead of joining in without any consideration, it's better to broaden our vision and create more innovative products.

 

[KaiFi]

Well, I can't say I'm not disappointed that Fiio may be dropping out of the portable DAC/amp market. Portable DAC/amps are what first got me into Fiio, and audio in general. My first ever headphone amp was a Fiio E17 DAC/amp, all the way back in 2014, and I've been using portable USB DAC/amps as my primary listening device for the past decade. But in some ways, the portable DAC/amp is kind of like the "prosumer" compact camera. There used to be many options from Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. But you see far fewer of them today. Most people either want an advanced DSLR/mirrorless (desktop amp/DAC) or they want a smartphone camera (dongle/Bluetooth). This sort of awkward, in-between product has a shrinking consumer base, being less powerful and capable than a desktop amp, and less portable and convenient than a dongle, Bluetooth receiver, or DAP. Most camera companies haven't released a new "prosumer" compact since 2019. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to portable DAC/amps, but I wouldn't be surprised if the market goes in that direction.

 

[abheybir]

(5) Portable DAC and Headphone Amplifier

Today's product line might be a bit disappointing because FIIO hasn't planned for new products in this category for 2024. Therefore, the product line will still consist of the Q11, Q3, Q15, and Q7.

The main reason is that the market for portable DAC/Amps is shrinking.

In the mid-to-low-end market, with improved performance and functionality as well as higher output power of FIIO's dongle DACs and Bluetooth DAC/Amps, low-end models become less competitive. For example, the KA17 has robust output power and stronger functions than that of the Q11 and Q3. Bluetooth DAC/Amps like the BTR7, are challenging products like the Q15 in functionality even with slightly lower performance and configurations.

However, the user experience of the USB dongles and Bluetooth DAC/Amps is better than that of portable DAC/Amps, and they usually have an advantage in body size and weight.

In the high-end market, FIIO's mid-to-high-end music players also feature powerful USB decoding and amplifying functions. They can also be used independently without a phone and provide a much better operational experience. Therefore, the high-end market for portable DAC/Amps is also limited.

As Bluetooth DAC/Amps are usually bundled with smartphones, the most significant issue currently is the user experience.

Therefore, we have decided not to develop new models until we find better technical solutions. Existing models, including the Q11, Q3, Q15, and Q7, will continue production and sales. When the market demand drops to an unsustainable level, relevant models will naturally be discontinued.

Furthermore, regarding the demand from many consumers for portable DAC/Amps to feature local playback functionality, we have conducted market research and experienced related products. It indeed satisfies some users' needs.

However, due to the small screens and relatively weak processor performance of such products (usually using Ingenic's X1000 or X2000), the user experience of a player is not comfortable enough. For example, it's challenging to quickly find the desired song in a large number of songs. If the screen is enlarged, due to insufficient processor performance, both display refresh rate and support for high resolution cannot be well-executed.

Also, these products cannot adopt the Android system, so they inevitably fall behind Android players with large screens in terms of streaming media support and user experience.

Therefore, with limited resources and no shortage of projects, we choose to invest our research and development resources into products that have a broader market and better meet consumer needs.

What is more, such products already exist in the market. We cannot make everything. Instead of joining in without any consideration, it's better to broaden our vision and create more innovative products.

I'm not sure about the market trend, but I love Fiio's dac/amp range. I just got a Q7 and in my opinion, it is the most versatile and value-for-money all-in-one solution one can have, it's easily transportable and the innovation of using it both on desktop and battery makes it the most versatile product I ever had. I think Fiio should continue doing such innovations ahead, taking a break makes sense but I just wish Fiio should not opt out of dac/amp market in the future.

BTR7 I understand is the best of both worlds and its pairing with ie900 is legendary making it one of the best consumer-oriented products but if taken as a direct competition to dac/amps then I slightly disagree. I think the use cases vary.

I'll always be the proud owner of Fiio dac/amp legacy!

 

[Eiffel]

(4) Desktop Music Player
...
The attached image is not the final design and is for reference only. The expected release is in the fall of 2024, with a pricing positioning in the mid-range category.

Perhaps that knob should be in the right, not in the left.
It would be more convenient for right handed people...

 

[WianFiiO]

Perhaps that knob should be in the right, not in the left.
It would be more convenient for right handed people...

There will be two knobs

 

[MauricioN]

(3) Portable Music Player

First, let's talk about FIIO's perspective on the portable music player industry.

It is undeniable that after a decade of rapid development, the relevant technology of portable players has matured, including configuration, performance, specifications, etc. For example, support for sampling rates beyond 384K/32B and DSD256 may not be significant for audiophiles. Truly native recordings with such high specifications are rare (some ultra-high specifications found online are likely artificially upsampled). Considering the availability of high-quality lossless audio sources from legitimate channels like Apple Music, a specification of 192K/24B or DSD128 is sufficient.

In terms of performance, high-end players like the FIIO M17 already utilize two ESS flagship DAC chips. The 8-channel ESS9038PRO DAC commonly used in desktop devices comes with an output power of 3000mW+3000mW and comprehensive interfaces. These devices lack only standard optical and RJ45 network ports.

The only aspect that might be considered insufficient is the main control. However, for an audio player, the M17's 660 processor is powerful enough to handle major streaming apps' operation for the next few years. The operating system will be upgraded to Android 12.0 this year.

Therefore, similar to smartphones, the upgrade cycle for audiophiles has been significantly extended due to the lack of stimulation from new technologies and features.

What is more, low-end players are facing challenges from TWS, USB dongles for mobile phones, and Bluetooth portable DAC/Amps, leading to a noticeable market decline.

Hence, two years ago, FIIO began redirecting research and development resources to expand into other categories, such as desktop streaming all-in-one units like the R7 and R9.

Regarding the future, I personally believe that high-end portable players may eventually get rid of the Android system. The demand for streaming playback may be achieved through other ways, such as transmitting music to the player from a phone via lossless Bluetooth/WiFi. After all, the upper limit for streaming music specifications is 192K/24B. Even if it doesn't reach 192K/24B, achieving 44.1K/16B is sufficient for the majority of audiophiles, and this can be easily achieved with aptX Lossless or NearLink technology.

Here is the launch plan for FIIO's new portable music players in 2024.

1. M27
As FIIO's flagship model at the end of 2021, the M17 has been around for over two years. FIIO plans to replace it with the M27 at the end of 2024. It will continue to be the flagship model in FIIO's portable player product line.

The M17 remains an outstanding player, equipped with powerful desktop mode output and features two flagship DAC chips from ESS, four THX 788+ power amplifiers, complete inputs and outputs of 6.3/4.4/3.5/2.5/coaxial/external power ports/2 Type-C ports, and a currently the highest-performance Qualcomm 660 chip.

It boasts a complete range of standard interfaces. We will continue to enhance the M17 in terms of functionality, performance, and user experience, providing top-notch hardware configuration, and making it an undisputed flagship model among Android intelligent portable music players.

However, it's challenging for the M27 to bring about significant innovations or improvements in appearance design, functionality, and performance, as the M17 did.

So, if you need a flagship player with sufficient performance, powerful output power, complete interfaces, and a satisfying experience, the M17 is enough. Especially when it's on sale, the price is quite competitive.

2. M23
We adjusted our product naming rules last year, so you may not be very clear about the positioning of the M23. This model, positioned between the X7-X7II-M11PRO-M11PLUS-M23, is likely the fifth generation and is a mainstay model in our mid-to-high-end portable player lineup.

We plan to launch the M23 in the spring of 2024. There won't be significant differences in appearance compared to the M11 Plus, but there will be some functional upgrades with an appropriate DAC.

3. M21
The M21 is the successor to the M11S, where the “2” in the model represents an upgrade from the first “1” in the M11, and the second “1” indicates the M21 is an entry-level model in FIIO's Android portable player lineup.

The planned release is also in late 2024, and the differences from the M11S will mainly involve changing the DAC and popularizing some existing features (such as the desktop mode).

So, by the end of the year, FIIO's Android portable player product line will consist of M21-M23-M15S-M27.

As for the pure music player that some users have suggested, based on our current research, there is a significant difference in opinions between domestic and foreign users. Especially for foreign users, since most of their audio sources come from streaming apps like TIDAL, SPOTIFY, and Apple Music, before solving the technical problem of pure music players when playing streaming music, we won't consider making it.

Hello dear Fiio friends, I am already a user of some products from your brand (IEMS). Yesterday I saw a message written by their sponsors in this forums.

I'm really thinking about buying the Fiio M17, will they update this device to a more recent version of the Operating System (Android 12) like R9? I need that answer to know what decision to make at this moment; buy the M17 or wait for the M27.....

 

[TheOneInYellow]

Hello dear Fiio friends, I am already a user of some products from your brand (IEMS). Yesterday I saw a message written by their sponsors in this forums.

I'm really thinking about buying the Fiio M17, will they update this device to a more recent version of the Operating System (Android 12) like R9? I need that answer to know what decision to make at this moment; buy the M17 or wait for the M27.....

I believe @FiiO had confirmed this on the first page of the thread, so yes it will receive Android 12 update. Please see below:

(3) Portable Music Player

The only aspect that might be considered insufficient is the main control. However, for an audio player, the M17's 660 processor is powerful enough to handle major streaming apps' operation for the next few years. The operating system will be upgraded to Android 12.0 this year.

---

However, if you are willing to wait, the M27 is being released in Q4 2024.
My advice is either fully wait, or find a dealer who would be happy for a trade-in (get M17 now, then trade).

(3) Portable Music Player

1. M27
As FIIO's flagship model at the end of 2021, the M17 has been around for over two years. FIIO plans to replace it with the M27 at the end of 2024. It will continue to be the flagship model in FIIO's portable player product line.

The M17 remains an outstanding player, equipped with powerful desktop mode output and features two flagship DAC chips from ESS, four THX 788+ power amplifiers, complete inputs and outputs of 6.3/4.4/3.5/2.5/coaxial/external power ports/2 Type-C ports, and a currently the highest-performance Qualcomm 660 chip.

It boasts a complete range of standard interfaces. We will continue to enhance the M17 in terms of functionality, performance, and user experience, providing top-notch hardware configuration, and making it an undisputed flagship model among Android intelligent portable music players.

However, it's challenging for the M27 to bring about significant innovations or improvements in appearance design, functionality, and performance, as the M17 did.

So, if you need a flagship player with sufficient performance, powerful output power, complete interfaces, and a satisfying experience, the M17 is enough. Especially when it's on sale, the price is quite competitive.

 

[MauricioN]

I believe @FiiO had confirmed this on the first page of the thread, so yes it will receive Android 12 update. Please see below:

---

However, if you are willing to wait, the M27 is being released in Q4 2024.
My advice is either fully wait, or find a dealer who would be happy for a trade-in (get M17 now, then trade).

Thank you TheOneInYellow you very kindly for answering it seems that you are right, I hope Fiio also reaffirm this really, Thanks in advance....

 

[FiiO]

Hello dear Fiio friends, I am already a user of some products from your brand (IEMS). Yesterday I saw a message written by their sponsors in this forums.

I'm really thinking about buying the Fiio M17, will they update this device to a more recent version of the Operating System (Android 12) like R9? I need that answer to know what decision to make at this moment; buy the M17 or wait for the M27.....

Dear friend,

Hi, here is the answer from our product managers:

After the Android 12 version is stable, we will also upgrade those models.

So M17 will be updated to Android 12 in the future.

Best regards

 

[FiiO]

(6) Desktop DAC and Headphone Amplifier

The story of desktop DAC/Amps is quite extensive. Initially, they were designed as accessories for FIIO players and portable DAC/Amps. For example, the K5 is a pure desktop headphone amplifier without decoding.

As for independent DAC/Amps, we conducted market research and found the sales were generally average. After canceling the base function of music players/portable DAC/Amps, they have almost been discontinued. But considering that the molds were still available, and the circuitry was quite advanced, we decided to try making a DAC/Amp without the base function!

This led to the K5 Pro, which has been in high demand globally for the past two years. Since then, we have successively developed desktop DAC/Amps like the K7/K7 BT, K9, K9 Pro, and K11, all of which have been well-received by consumers. Desktop DAC/Amps have become a crucial product line in the FIIO family.

In 2024, the new desktop DAC/Amps we will release include:

1. Flagship desktop DAC/Amp K19
This product was delayed, which was originally planned to be released in the winter of 2023. However, it was postponed due to a significant move – we introduced a strategic, sound-quality-related feature into desktop DAC/Amps. This posed numerous technical challenges that needed to be overcome. So, it has been repeatedly delayed, and the current expected release time is March.

The K19, as the flagship model, sees significant improvements in form, function, design, sound quality, power output, and configuration. Not only is it an innovative flagship in the FIIO desktop DAC/Amp series, but it is also a masterpiece with many unique innovations in the entire industry. We are very satisfied. If you have a plan to purchase such a product in the near future, it might be worth waiting until the K19 is released before deciding.

2. K11 R2R special edition
In the past two years, due to chip supply issues and technical bottlenecks, there have been very few choices for audio DACs. In this context, various brands have introduced their R2R products.

Adopting R2R technology allows us to break free from the restrictions of ESS, AKM, and other chip manufacturers. We can use general chips like FPGA. Additionally, the R2R D/A conversion mode, compared to the current commercial DAC's Δ - Σ conversion method, is considered to be closer to the sound of analog audio. Therefore, despite some key indicators such as signal-to-noise ratio, distortion, dynamics, and sampling rate support being somewhat inferior, and despite higher power consumption, larger size, and higher costs, many audiophiles would still choose products with R2R technology for their unique sound.

Simply put, R2R has good taste, while Δ - Σ has high quality. (Note: There are R2R with very high indicators, yet at an extremely high price and with large circuit size. We personally think that if R2R indicators are pronounced too high, its unique taste might not be so attractive.)

Therefore, the K11 R2R version will be FIIO's first product to use R2R technology. As the first product, there may be some aspects that are not so mature and complete. So, we are testing with the technology in the K11 first. We will gradually iterate and evolve based on feedback from users. Depending on feedback and demand from audiophiles, we will decide whether to develop it as a personalized product in small quantities or apply it as a core technology to more of our products in the future.

The K11 R2R version is expected to be available for sale in the middle of 2024.

3. SR11 streaming receiver (network bridge)
The SR11 has somewhat been exposed before. In simple terms, it is a network streaming receiver that supports DLNA, AirPlay, and ROON. Due to the complexity of network protocols, similar to R2R technology, we will test it with one product first. Only when the product's experience and stability are excellent will we consider adding this function to future FIIO desktop DAC/Amps.

The SR11 will recruit some beta users in the near future and will be sold in small quantities through non-public channels.

The remaining products, K11/K7/K9, are in high demand, and we don't have plans for updates in the short term. Although the K9 Pro has been on the market for two years, we have not yet initiated the development of a replacement model. It is estimated that it will be in early 2025 at the earliest.

To sum up, the product line for desktop DAC/Amps in 2024 is K11 (K11 R2R) - K7 (K7 BT) - K9 - K9 Pro - K19, and SR11. You can make a decision according to your needs.