[Shaffer]

Certainly makes sense on an intuitive level.

 

[Renderman]

No, none. I've tried a number of isolation products over the years - some transformer-based, but I'm sure not as intricate as yours - with zero luck. The system if fed from its own subpanel with 100A service. We considered using a separate ground, but later realized that's not where the problem lies. It's on the neutral leg. I've been trying to get the electric company to build a new mains substation, but they don't seem very sympathetic.

That sounds really cool. Seriously. I'll be keeping an eye out for an industrial unit.

Get them to build that substation! I used to live in a place where the power was very clean (could easily be seen on my scope). There was a state of the art substation very close. Now I live in the inner city and the power looks more like noise, hard to recognize a sine wave in there
 
The isolation transformer was custom wound by the Amplimo company here in Holland, they make excellent products. You can imagine it wasn't cheap. (Over 300 euros if memory serves me correctly.) I might be able to get another one for a much reduced price however, It weighs 18 Kilograms so would probably expensive to ship. Let me know if you're interested.
 
Quote:

I did look. They look terrific. As my speakers are so big, I'd like a pair of mini-monitors. Mini-monitors + high sensitivity = oxymoron. But I'm looking. There's actually a product I have in mind; just don't want to pay for it.
That should be fun!

The Alpair 10 can actually be made in to a pretty small box (12 liters) and are 92dB sensitive. Too bad we are not close, would only take me a few hours to build you a pair.
 
I have no experience with rectifier tubes at all and diode bridges have always worked fine for me so, I can not comment on those tubes

 

[Shaffer]

Can anyone explain the soup logic? I can see the look of on everyone's faces, "He's finally lost it."

What I mean is, we have a pair of drivers - one per channel. Some are running completely different tubes in each driver position, as if there's a pot of soup inside the amplifier that mixes all the ingredients together and then a tiny ladle comes down to pour an appropriate portion into each channel every nanosecond. Of course we all understand how ridiculous this is. So, how is it that more than one person is using two entirely different tubes for each respective channel of the Elise, in turn producing a different sound in each ear, and none of them notice?

 

[SonicTrance]

Can anyone explain the soup logic? I can see the look of on everyone's faces, "He's finally lost it."

What I mean is, we have a pair of drivers - one per channel. Some are running completely different tubes in each driver position, as if there's a pot of soup inside the amplifier that mixes all the ingredients together and then a tiny ladle comes down to pour an appropriate portion into each channel every nanosecond. Of course we all understand how ridiculous this is. So, how is it that more than one person is using two entirely different tubes for each respective channel of the Elise, in turn producing a different sound in each ear, and none of them notice?

I don't own the Elise. But I always thought the two driver tubes were connected in parallel in that amp, hence working together. I'm just guessing here but it would make sense since people are using miss matched drivers with good results...

 

[Renderman]

  I don't own the Elise. But I always thought the two driver tubes were connected in parallel in that amp, hence working together. I'm just guessing here but it would make sense since people are using miss matched drivers with good results...

I wasn't going to burn my fingers on this one but, here goes...
 
The Elise puts the triodes of each channels driver tubes in series, to the best of my knowledge. Left and right channels are separate. I confirmed this by tapping on the tubes. Tapping the right tube only produced sound in the right channel.
 
Using different tubes obviously makes for bigger differences between the left and right output. This expands the stereo image and thus can sound more expansive, airy or having a bigger soundstage.
 
To me however using different drivers is always noticeable, hearing certain frequencies more in one channel than the other or shifting the singer more left or right for instance. I tried it but quickly changed back to using the same driver tubes left and right.

 

[SonicTrance]

Ok, my guess was wrong

 

[Shaffer]

Ok, my guess was wrong

Your point was not illogical. I mean, there had to be a reasonable explanation and I'm afraid we now know what it is. The part that gets me is all the talk about sound quality. In which ear? lol

I see quite a few folks jumping on the 6N7G bandwagon. Admittedly, I did, as well. It sounds like one of the other Elise owners is using the exact same pair that I returned. The tube has a big, powerful sound. Lots of bass. That's the good part. The Elise can go low, really low. These tubes cut off, at best, around 40Hz. Though the bass is powerful, it has little definition and even less articulation - one, big blob of sound. No real detail. Sure, there's some on the macro scale, but low-level - forgetaboutit. No texture to the sound, no true expression of musical emotion. With better sounding tubes available for as little as $4, why even bother? I certainly won't be doing it again. Looking at the bright side, at least one has the 'phones sounding the same in both channels. lol

Compare a 6N7G to a 7N7/7AF7, and it's like comparing the Woo WA6 to the Elise. Both can make a sound. That's the only real similarity.

 

[Renderman]

Your point was not illogical. I mean, there had to be a reasonable explanation and I'm afraid we now know what it is. The part that gets me is all the talk about sound quality. In which ear? lol

I see quite a few folks jumping on the 6N7G bandwagon. Admittedly, I did, as well. It sounds like one of the other Elise owners is using the exact same pair that I returned. The tube has a big, powerful sound. Lots of bass. That's the good part. The Elise can go low, really low. These tubes cut off, at best, around 40Hz. Though the bass is powerful, it has little definition and even less articulation - one, big blob of sound. No real detail. Sure, there's some on the macro scale, but low-level - forgetaboutit. No texture to the sound, no true expression of musical emotion. With better sounding tubes available for as little as $4, why even bother? I certainly won't be doing it again. Looking at the bright side, at least one has the 'phones sounding the same in both channels. lol

Compare a 6N7G to a 7N7/7AF7, and it's like comparing the Woo WA6 to the Elise. Both can make a sound. That's the only real similarity.

The 6N7G never had my attention, never had the intention to get even one. Maybe that is just because I did not read any compelling advantages of it vs other tubes. Also the ECC31 sound so good, so compelling, so real... I can not imagine wanting more. Besides that I have stopped buying audio gear for a while (sorry Shaff!), I want to finish the projects that are still on my todo list (finish speakers, redo line filter wiring, sort and sell tubes) before I buy any more tubes or gear. I feel like i'm at a point where I have sufficient information on tubes and a very satisfying setup.
 
Just finished building one of the new Markaudio Alpair 12P speakers, at first listen it sounds teriffic! It goes really deep, some true sub-bass and very balanced mids and highs. Everything is just there. Happy with that one so far, lets hope I can finish the second one today!

 

[gibosi]

  Just finished building one of the new Markaudio Alpair 12P speakers, at first listen it sounds teriffic! It goes really deep, some true sub-bass and very balanced mids and highs. Everything is just there. Happy with that one so far, lets hope I can finish the second one today!

 
Is this enclosure vented? Or acoustic suspension?

 

[Shaffer]

The three different sizes of 7N7. Everything I've read pointed to only two sizes, yet here they are. The medium bottle is JAN ordered for the signals corps. Wish I could find another.



An early 7N7 next to a later version. As you can see, the earlier model has a lot more chrome. Its sound is slightly better, but not a night and day difference.

 

[Shaffer]

The 6N7G never had my attention, never had the intention to get even one. Maybe that is just because I did not read any compelling advantages of it vs other tubes. Also the ECC31 sound so good, so compelling, so real... I can not imagine wanting more. Besides that I have stopped buying audio gear for a while (sorry Shaff!),

I see ~$100 expense in front of me, and I'm essentially done, too. Sure, I'd like to pick up some K712 next year, perhaps HD700 instead, and that's about it. I'm very happy with what I have.

I want to finish the projects that are still on my todo list (finish speakers, redo line filter wiring, sort and sell tubes) before I buy any more tubes or gear. I feel like i'm at a point where I have sufficient information on tubes and a very satisfying setup[/B].

Same here, due in no small part to the efforts of those I won't name for the umpteenth time.

Just finished building one of the new Markaudio Alpair 12P speakers, at first listen it sounds teriffic! It goes really deep, some true sub-bass and very balanced mids and highs. Everything is just there. Happy with that one so far, lets hope I can finish the second one today!

Looks good! I do wish you lived closer.

 

[Renderman]

   
Is this enclosure vented? Or acoustic suspension?

I'm glad you asked! It's vented but, in the previous picture I did not make the front port (vent) yet. This enclosure is what is called a MLTL, Mass Loaded Transmission Line. Essentially a better way to make a vented enclosure Here is a picture of the braced and stuffed enclosure, you can see the wide port at the bottom.
 

 
 
 

I see ~$100 expense in front of me, and I'm essentially done, too. Sure, I'd like to pick up some K712 next year, perhaps HD700 instead, and that's about it. I'm very happy with what I have.
Same here, due in no small part to the efforts of those I won't name for the umpteenth time.
Looks good! I do wish you lived closer.

I'm glad we are on the same page Shaffer! Buying tubes and audio gear was getting to be a habit, probably not a good thing I'm perfectly happy with what I have and have to complete the projects that have been going on the last few months. I would rather save my money and buy a better tube power amplifier in a few months time!

 

[Shaffer]

I'm glad you asked! It's vented but, in the previous picture I did not make the front port (vent) yet. This enclosure is what is called a MLTL, Mass Loaded Transmission Line. Essentially a better way to make a vented enclosure Here is a picture of the braced and stuffed enclosure, you can see the wide port at the bottom.




Incidentally, the HT sub that's built into my house is a MLTL, as well. Martin J. King was kind enough to help out.

I'm glad we are on the same page Shaffer! Buying tubes and audio gear was getting to be a habit, probably not a good thing I'm perfectly happy with what I have and have to complete the projects that have been going on the last few months. I would rather save my money and buy a better tube power amplifier in a few months time!

It becomes a habit, which kinda take a lot of fun out of it. Ultimately, I'm a music guy. The gear is a means to an end. This isn't to say that I don't like electronics. I do. It's just that when I feel the system sounds good, as per my preference structure and sonic expectations, I don't feel the need to look for something better. Can't say it was always like this.

At first, I bought a bunch of various, inexpensive used tubes to see what I liked. Now I know and the $100 I spoke of should cover 2 NOS pairs of "regular" black plate Tung Sol 6SN7s and 3 pairs of 6CY7s for the Woo. I have enough output tubes and rectifiers, though one day I'd like to pick up another GZ34 and perhaps a GZ37, but that's way in the future. There are enough singles to keep the DV running for decades, and now I know which tubes make the WA6 come alive, so I'm essentially finished.

 

[Renderman]

Looks good! I do wish you lived closer.

Thanks! They sound even better than they look
 

It becomes a habit, which kinda take a lot of fun out of it. Ultimately, I'm a music guy. The gear is a means to an end. This isn't to say that I don't like electronics. I do. It's just that when I feel the system sounds good, as per my preference structure and sonic expectations, I don't feel the need to look for something better. Can't say it was always like this.

At first, I bought a bunch of various, inexpensive used tubes to see what I liked. Now I know and the $100 I spoke of should cover 2 NOS pairs of "regular" black plate Tung Sol 6SN7s and 3 pairs of 6CY7s for the Woo. I have enough output tubes and rectifiers, though one day I'd like to pick up another GZ34 and perhaps a GZ37, but that's way in the future. There are enough singles to keep the DV running for decades, and now I know which tubes make the WA6 come alive, so I'm essentially finished.

 
I fully agree with you there, it's about the music. Audio gear is just to make it sound as good as it can. Close to a live performance.
 
Must have 40 pairs of tubes by now... way to many. First priority is finishing the speakers, after that I will be sorting out the tubes.

Incidentally, the HT sub that's built into my house is a MLTL, as well. Martin J. King was kind enough to help out.

 
Ha! That's cool, if anyone would know hot to design a MLTL, it's Martin! You should show us your sub!

 

[gibosi]

At first, I bought a bunch of various, inexpensive used tubes to see what I liked. Now I know and the $100 I spoke of should cover 2 NOS pairs of "regular" black plate Tung Sol 6SN7s and 3 pairs of 6CY7s for the Woo. I have enough output tubes and rectifiers, though one day I'd like to pick up another GZ34 and perhaps a GZ37, but that's way in the future. There are enough singles to keep the DV running for decades, and now I know which tubes make the WA6 come alive, so I'm essentially finished.

 
You can get essentially the same sound by purchasing black-glass, round-plate Tung Sol 6F8G and/or 6C8G, which are considerably less money. Also, the round-plate National Union 6F8G and 6C8G are very similar, but a tad bit sweeter, and are usually even cheaper.