[brianknewbie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27 I have tested the two side-by-side. I would not pay for the mod. You can do much better with your money. Just my opinion, Matt

Your comparison was using the headphone out of stock vs. unmodded headphone out of the modded DAC1, correct?

 

[Edwood]

I'll bet real money that the headphone amp stage does not somehow degrade the audio so much that you cannot tell the difference between the two. If anything, if it did somehow degrade the audio, it is doing so to the same extent, so you should be able to hear some measure of improvement.

I guess if you really wanted to be fair, you would have to use the analog outputs from each of the DAC1's and route them to either a preamp hooked up to a headphone amp, or to an amp with two analog inputs that you can switch between.

Unless you can rapidly switch between the two DAC's I firmly believe that the placebo effect is all too real.

-Ed

 

[Kurt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood Unless you can rapidly switch between the two DAC's I firmly believe that the placebo effect is all too real.

Maybe so with small differences, but a switchbox or preamp works as a leveler.

 

[woodcans]

I guess I did not state my exact setup when I posted my follow up impressions. The way I have my rig set up now is I have the marantz cdp simultaneously hooked up to both a stock dac1 and an EA modded dac1 via toslink and coax, respectively. Each dac1 is connected via the analog rca output jacks to my mpx3 which has dual inputs. I can therefore switch instantly b/n the modded unit and the unmodded unit. I realize that there is likely some difference in sound from using the different inputs i.e. toslink vs. coax and some difference in the rca interconnects. However, having exchanged input & output cables in my system fairly extensively, I think I can confidently state that the difference in sound is not placebo and cannot be accounted for by the difference in cabling. I will do some more experimentation this weekend with cable swapping, etc. But I will say that the more I listen to the EA dac1, the more I like it. Especially as it has had time to burn in over the last week or so. When going from the stock to the EA unit, it's sounds 'unveiled' as if curtains had been opened between my ears and the headphones. The other thing I have noticed is it sounds more like music is being played in the room as opposed to coming from the headphone drivers. The soundstage has become more focused as well.

In summary, having A/B'ed the units myself, as I was somewhat skeptical to begin with, I am very pleased with the mods and after having lived with the EA DAC1 for over a week, there's no going back to the stock unit for me.

As for the headphone output jack, I'll be listening to that in the upcoming weeks and can report on that later.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood I'll bet real money that the headphone amp stage does not somehow degrade the audio so much that you cannot tell the difference between the two. If anything, if it did somehow degrade the audio, it is doing so to the same extent, so you should be able to hear some measure of improvement. I guess if you really wanted to be fair, you would have to use the analog outputs from each of the DAC1's and route them to either a preamp hooked up to a headphone amp, or to an amp with two analog inputs that you can switch between. Unless you can rapidly switch between the two DAC's I firmly believe that the placebo effect is all too real. -Ed

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodcans I guess I did not state my exact setup when I posted my follow up impressions. The way I have my rig set up now is I have the marantz cdp simultaneously hooked up to both a stock dac1 and an EA modded dac1 via toslink and coax, respectively. Each dac1 is connected via the analog rca output jacks to my mpx3 which has dual inputs. I can therefore switch instantly b/n the modded unit and the unmodded unit. I realize that there is likely some difference in sound from using the different inputs i.e. toslink vs. coax and some difference in the rca interconnects. However, having exchanged input & output cables in my system fairly extensively, I think I can confidently state that the difference in sound is not placebo and cannot be accounted for by the difference in cabling. I will do some more experimentation this weekend with cable swapping, etc. But I will say that the more I listen to the EA dac1, the more I like it. Especially as it has had time to burn in over the last week or so. When going from the stock to the EA unit, it's sounds 'unveiled' as if curtains had been opened between my ears and the headphones. The other thing I have noticed is it sounds more like music is being played in the room as opposed to coming from the headphone drivers. The soundstage has become more focused as well. In summary, having A/B'ed the units myself, as I was somewhat skeptical to begin with, I am very pleased with the mods and after having lived with the EA DAC1 for over a week, there's no going back to the stock unit for me. As for the headphone output jack, I'll be listening to that in the upcoming weeks and can report on that later.

Still, to convince the Hard-A** head-fiers here, you will still need to do A-B conparisons using the exact same digital cable and exact same analogue IC

I do believe there will be huge differences in a speaker setup even with same cables from my previous EA experiences.

At the meet, Ferbose, Crazyfrenchman, and I were manually moving the same coax and interconnects between the 2 DAC's. Takes 10-15 seconds, so it's not ideal, but I prefer this method over going through another active device like preamp that will further add its own flavor. I still haven't heard a preamp, at any cost, that is 100% pure and neutral like all companies claim.

Boy, I sure do wish I could compare your EA DAC1 with superclock3 and Brian's EA DAC1 without superclock3. That SC3 is damned expensive..

 

[woodcans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L Still, to convince the Hard-A** head-fiers here, you will still need to do A-B conparisons using the exact same digital cable and exact same analogue IC I do believe there will be huge differences in a speaker setup even with same cables from my previous EA experiences. At the meet, Ferbose, Crazyfrenchman, and I were manually moving the same coax and interconnects between the 2 DAC's. Takes 10-15 seconds, so it's not ideal, but I prefer this method over going through another active device like preamp that will further add its own flavor. I still haven't heard a preamp, at any cost, that is 100% pure and neutral like all companies claim. Boy, I sure do wish I could compare your EA DAC1 with superclock3 and Brian's EA DAC1 without superclock3. That SC3 is damned expensive..

Haha, yes, I agree. That's what I plan to do this weekend if I have time, is sit down & use the same IC's & just switch the cardas coax manually. I also want to compare driving my 650's using the headphone jack vs. driven directly from the XLR outputs.

A comparison b/n mine and Brian's would be fun. I'm definitely interested in what the superclock does on its own.

 

[woodcans]

Empirical Audio modded DAC1 vs. stock DAC1 comparison.

Okay everyone, here are the results of my comparison of my stock DAC1 vs. the Empirical Audio modded DAC1 (including opamp replacement and superturboclock3).

My setup is as follows:

Source: Marantz cd5400 digital out via coax using Cardas digital high speed cable with bnc adapter included with DAC1. I have 2 DAC1 units. A stock version and one turbomodded by Steve at Empirical Audio. I connected both DAC1's simultaneously to my dual input Singlepower MPX3 via Outlaw Audio PCA 0.5m RCA interconnects. I was therefore able to switch between sources via unhooking the Cardas cable from the stock DAC1 and hooking it up to the modded DAC1 and vice versa, and then switching from input 1 to input 2 on my MPX3. The time to switch b/n sources took approx. 15 seconds. The signal path from the Marantz to my HD650/Zu combo was identical from the cdp->Cardas->bnc adapter (included w/ DAC1)->DAC1->Outlaw PCA IC->MPX3->Zu->Senn650. The stock power cords were used with the DAC1s, ground pin lifted via adapter.

Now, although this is a work in progress, here is a summary of my experience thus far:

First, while listening to jack johnson's cd on and on I noted that the cymballs with the EA unit were more extended in frequency, more detailed such that I could hear the impact of the cymballs and the rattle of each as they were played. Midrange was much smoother and more realistic, as well as more liquid sounding. And the bass was definitely tighter and deeper.

Moving on to the Garden State Soundtrack, the shaker on Thievery Corp.'s Lebanese Blonde sounded much more "in the room with me" than the stock unit. The separation of instruments was much better and the bass lines were more well defined and better controlled.

On Iron and Wine's track, Such Great Heights, the vocal texture was much more complex and I could hear at least 3 distinctly seperate voices during harmony, while listening through my stock dac1 I was unable to differentiate the voices. Also, the analog tape hum/detail was actually much more detailed w/ the modded unit

. The other thing I noted was that I could almost 'see' the guitar strings being picked with the EA DAC1, as opposed to just 'hearing' the notes through the stock unit. Almost as if the stock box sounded compressed in comparison.

Then after throwing in the remastered 1984 from Van Halen, there just is no comparison. The drum intro on Hot for Teacher just has more air, more high frequency extension, and more detail than the stock box. Not to mention the tonality and harmonics of Eddie's guitar.
Finally, I listened to the AC/DC remaster of Who Made Who. The detail,air, high frequency extension and seperation of instruments is just unequaled by the stock unit. Bass control and depth is also unmatched.

So, after comparing apples to apples, I remain extremely pleased with my modded unit. My overall impression is that the modded unit adds musicality, detail, and removes a layer or two of 'veiling' from the sound of the stock unit without sounding bright or sibilant and maintaining a high level of musical enjoyment that I have not previously experienced. Bass detail and control is improved as well, and midrange detail is much better. Are the upgrades worth it? I certainly think so. This is exactly what I was hoping would come from modding my dac1. I guess the only way to tell for sure is to compare my box to other high-end sources in the same/higher price range. Hopefully I can do this during upcoming head-fi meets. In the meantime, I certainly recommend these mods and I am definitely going to have Steve work on my transport as well. Please let me know if any of you have any questions.

woodcans

 

[elmoe]

Thanks for the review, it helps.

It would be nice to compare the modded DAC to a 2000-3000USD source to see what is more worthwhile, upgrading or modding the DAC. I'm sure it'll be somewhat hard though, but if anyone has heard both it would be nice to hear some impressions.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodcans Empirical Audio modded DAC1 vs. stock DAC1 comparison. Okay everyone, here are the results of my comparison of my stock DAC1 vs. the Empirical Audio modded DAC1 (including opamp replacement and superturboclock3). My setup is as follows: Source: Marantz cd5400 digital out via coax using Cardas digital high speed cable with bnc adapter included with DAC1. I have 2 DAC1 units. A stock version and one turbomodded by Steve at Empirical Audio. I connected both DAC1's simultaneously to my dual input Singlepower MPX3 via Outlaw Audio PCA 0.5m RCA interconnects. I was therefore able to switch between sources via unhooking the Cardas cable from the stock DAC1 and hooking it up to the modded DAC1 and vice versa, and then switching from input 1 to input 2 on my MPX3. The time to switch b/n sources took approx. 15 seconds. The signal path from the Marantz to my HD650/Zu combo was identical from the cdp->Cardas->bnc adapter (included w/ DAC1)->DAC1->Outlaw PCA IC->MPX3->Zu->Senn650. The stock power cords were used with the DAC1s, ground pin lifted via adapter. Now, although this is a work in progress, here is a summary of my experience thus far: First, while listening to jack johnson's cd on and on I noted that the cymballs with the EA unit were more extended in frequency, more detailed such that I could hear the impact of the cymballs and the rattle of each as they were played. Midrange was much smoother and more realistic, as well as more liquid sounding. And the bass was definitely tighter and deeper. Moving on to the Garden State Soundtrack, the shaker on Thievery Corp.'s Lebanese Blonde sounded much more "in the room with me" than the stock unit. The separation of instruments was much better and the bass lines were more well defined and better controlled. On Iron and Wine's track, Such Great Heights, the vocal texture was much more complex and I could hear at least 3 distinctly seperate voices during harmony, while listening through my stock dac1 I was unable to differentiate the voices. Also, the analog tape hum/detail was actually much more detailed w/ the modded unit . The other thing I noted was that I could almost 'see' the guitar strings being picked with the EA DAC1, as opposed to just 'hearing' the notes through the stock unit. Almost as if the stock box sounded compressed in comparison. Then after throwing in the remastered 1984 from Van Halen, there just is no comparison. The drum intro on Hot for Teacher just has more air, more high frequency extension, and more detail than the stock box. Not to mention the tonality and harmonics of Eddie's guitar. Finally, I listened to the AC/DC remaster of Who Made Who. The detail,air, high frequency extension and seperation of instruments is just unequaled by the stock unit. Bass control and depth is also unmatched. So, after comparing apples to apples, I remain extremely pleased with my modded unit. My overall impression is that the modded unit adds musicality, detail, and removes a layer or two of 'veiling' from the sound of the stock unit without sounding bright or sibilant and maintaining a high level of musical enjoyment that I have not previously experienced. Bass detail and control is improved as well, and midrange detail is much better. Are the upgrades worth it? I certainly think so. This is exactly what I was hoping would come from modding my dac1. I guess the only way to tell for sure is to compare my box to other high-end sources in the same/higher price range. pefully I can do this during upcoming head-fi meets. In the meantime, I certainly recommend these mods and I am definitely going to have Steve work on my transport as well. Please let me know if any of you have any questions. woodcans

Thanks for the update. Now you still need to compare stock and modded DAC1 headphone output! Knowing Steve, he probably put some blackgates in the headphone out and replaced the opamp..

 

[Ferbose]

Very nice, Woodcans.

Have you tried stock DAC1 with safety ground lifted when plugged into the outlet, which IMHO offers clearly audible improvement? By the way, what is the output impedance of RCA on your stock and modded units. As I understand, my version (192 kHZ model) has 1250 ohms but later versions it becomes much lower (<100 ohms). If the output impedance is different, sound will likely be affected. I convert XLR to RCA output using modified (pin 3 floated) HOSA adapters to get a 30 ohm unbalanced output.

If anyone in So-Cal is interested in comparing my stock unit to their modified unit, I would interested in participating in such a mini-meet..

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose Very nice, Woodcans. Have you tried stock DAC1 with safety ground lifted when plugged into the outlet, which IMHO offers clearly audible improvement? By the way, what is the output impedance of RCA on your stock and modded units. As I understand, my version (192 kHZ model) has 1250 ohms but later versions it becomes much lower (<100 ohms). If the output impedance is different, sound will likely be affected. I convert XLR to RCA output using modified (pin 3 floated) HOSA adapters to get a 30 ohm unbalanced output. If anyone in So-Cal is interested in comparing my stock unit to their modified unit, I would interested in participating in such a mini-meet..

The output impedance on the RCA outs is ~50 ohms after mods.

BTW - the NEW pulse transformer upgrade includes a 75 ohm isolated Canare BNC rather than the 50 ohm BNC that comes on the unit. This isolates the unit and eliminates the ground-noise that you are experiencing.

Steve N.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L Still, to convince the Hard-A** head-fiers here, you will still need to do A-B conparisons using the exact same digital cable and exact same analogue IC I do believe there will be huge differences in a speaker setup even with same cables from my previous EA experiences. At the meet, Ferbose, Crazyfrenchman, and I were manually moving the same coax and interconnects between the 2 DAC's. Takes 10-15 seconds, so it's not ideal, but I prefer this method over going through another active device like preamp that will further add its own flavor. I still haven't heard a preamp, at any cost, that is 100% pure and neutral like all companies claim. Boy, I sure do wish I could compare your EA DAC1 with superclock3 and Brian's EA DAC1 without superclock3. That SC3 is damned expensive..

I used my Toslink distribution amp to output the exact same signal using the same length and brand or glass optical toslink cables to each Benchmark DAC1 at the same time.

Then using a headphone switchbox, have hooked up to both DAC1's headphone outputs. This allowed me to switch back and forth instantaneously.

And you guys can go on and on about how much speakers sound so much better, but this is Head-fi, and I am interested in how it sounds with headphones, thank you.

I am still interested in hearing how much of a difference the Superclock 3 makes. Since the part alone costs nearly $300, it should really make a noticeable difference to be worth it.

-Ed

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood And you guys can go on and on about how much speakers sound so much better, but this is Head-fi, and I am interested in how it sounds with headphones, thank you. I am still interested in hearing how much of a difference the Superclock 3 makes. Since the part alone costs nearly $300, it should really make a noticeable difference to be worth it. -Ed

Ed, I'm not saying speakers sound so much better at all. At this point in my speaker/headphone career, I actually prefer headphone listening for lack of room coloration, higher purity and resolution, and intimacy. And I'm talking about in comparison to $20-40K speakers with no apologies.

It's just that the differences in soundstaging, imaging, air and ambience between images, height/depth info allows speakers to reveal differences between DACs (cables, etc, etc) more easily. This does not necessarily make speakers "better" than headphones for musical enjoyment. It's just a better 'radioshack SPL meter' for telling differences.

I myself can't say I heard big differences between the 2 DAC1's, though I heard more difference when a separate amp was used. I wouldn't wanto to bet my money on blind testing, for example. This is strange b/c I've heard unmistakably large differences in speaker systems with Empirical Audio's mods with other DAC's. One of these days...

 

[audioengr]

This headphone phenomena is an interesting and concerning one. The other clubs that have done A/B's with speakers didn't have any problems hearing a difference, for instance:

Melbourne Audio Club

It's hard to believe that the headphones are so bad as to mask these differences. Perhaps the fact that spacial imaging is limited with them?

 

[Edwood]

Yeah, my R10's and AKG K1000's are just crap with the DAC1.

-Ed