[ScottFree]

On a total different subject, I really wish one of the highest end iem makers will for once look at how to solve the fit issue without having to go through the custom iem route.
I can not believe that after all the great success of making iems sound amazing, that still the tips are the bottleneck back draw to achieve great seal all the time. I was so excited to learn about the inflated tips by Adel or whatever the name of the company is / was, which I assume is now history. Which is a shame. And I really wonder why big name iem companies are not looking into the fit issue more . As to some going the custom route is not an option at all.

Because generally it is impossible. The human ear is more unique to an individual than a fingerprint.

 

[Wyville]

On a total different subject, I really wish one of the highest end iem makers will for once look at how to solve the fit issue without having to go through the custom iem route.
I can not believe that after all the great success of making iems sound amazing, that still the tips are the bottleneck back draw to achieve great seal all the time. I was so excited to learn about the inflated tips by Adel or whatever the name of the company is / was, which I assume is now history. Which is a shame. And I really wonder why big name iem companies are not looking into the fit issue more . As to some going the custom route is not an option at all.

I literally bought maybe over 20 different types of tips and have a huge bag of different tips and sizes that I experiment with. So yes I can get now good seal with iems, but I feel that such an issue should have been solved long time ago. As fiddling with getting a seal is sometimes not that much of a fun thing to do

What @ScottFree said, it is extremely difficult to make a universal fit that actually fits universally well. Every ear is different and as a result the fit of IEMs and tips will vary from person to person. That is also why two people can perceive differences in the sound of the same IEMs, and why measurements are informative only to a certain extend, because it is a measurement of the IEMs and only an approximation of the sound a person actually hears.

I know that several companies that make CIEMs as well as universal fit IEMs use modelling of hundreds of CIEMs to get the best possible average fit, but it does not guarantee an optimal fit for every person. Not sure how much more companies can do in this area.

 

[Mython]

Of course, there is also the compromise approach to getting a good fit & seal, without going full-custom shell, and that is to get custom ear-tips:

http://www.acscustom.com/us/index.php/in-ear-monitors/custom-earphone-sleeves
https://www.earplugstore.com/cusfitearmol1.html

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/soundmolds-headphone-eartips-review/
https://www.macworld.com/article/1155617/etymotic_custom_fit.html


Never tried them, myself.

I'm a full-custom-shell (CIEM) fan (and I admit there can be a lot of hassle with getting CIEMs to fit accurately, which is why this thread came into being).


In the same way that different shapes and materials of universal tips may subtly alter the sound character of a universal-shell IEM, it is possible that custom-moulded silicone ear tips may do so, too, so that's another variable one shouldn't overlook (for example, you can see that, in recent years, companies like FitEar have been using metallic tubing in their CIEMs, specifically because they recognise that it influences the subjective sound character of their products. Other companies, like SpiralEar, very deliberately choose to make their sound tubes from silicone, rather than the more conventional plastic ones, so common in the CIEM industry - this is not because SE's shells happen to be silicone).

So many variables to consider, on the universal-shell side of the industry that you are a customer of - to tell you the truth, I feel quite sorry for universal-shell IEM makers, because all these variables can (potentially) undermine their intended tunings on their various products. Then again, even CIEM products aren't immune to such variation, because, in addition to every human being perceiving things slightly differently, there's also the fact that each pair of CIEMs will have a slightly different distance between output nozzle and eardrum, and different volumetric proportions of the ear canal, all of which may alter the sound, even before the idiosyncrasies of each human brain are involved!

However, if one feels like going the custom-tip route, to improve consistency of fit and seal with their universal-shell IEMs, they should also pause and consider if different IEMs may have different nozzles lengths / different depths of insertion. IF they are unlucky, they might need to get different custom tips for each IEM they own, but it may still be worth it, as custom tips are (thankfully) not insanely expensive. Then again, one might be lucky and be able to use one set of custom tips on several IEMs.

None of the above is intended to be negative. Really, not at all. In many cases, custom tips are a viable option and may increase isolation, fit, seal, comfort, and listening pleasure significantly, but it's just that it pays to take that path with the knowledge of some of the variables that may influence the final outcome!

 

[ranfan]

Just realized that the description is a bit like if you would have the zeus and switch to the WM1Z from another more "analytical" source, added warmth, bass extension, bass impact is used to describe the WM1z in reviews. Just a thought.. (even if it will not transform your zeus to an phantom.. )
How much does a source like the WM1Z change/impact the zeus for instance, any comparisons made?
I have it myself but have not compared it to anything else.. But i love how my Zeus sounds out of it. currently actually experimenting with the excellent Eq adding a little bass and dropping 8khz slightly. Haven't reached any conclusions yet though... just for fun..

Interesting observation there. Maybe the Phantom with an analytical source, would sound like the Zeus with a warmer source. Although probably not very similar due to their significantly different tuning and configuration, but it could be close.

I haven't try the 1Z, but I have the 1A. To me the Zeus + 1A pairing sounds more full-bodied, especially in the lower-midrange, but less detailed than AK70II. Although the Zeus hisses a bit with the 1A, it is relatively quieter when paired with AK70II, and much noisier with Opus#2. With the more analytical Opus#2 source, the Zeus sounds leaner, having less body, and warmth. The bass is tight, less powerful, and impact size smaller. The vocals sound cold, and thinner. With the AK70II, the Zeus sounds tonally more balanced, and 'right'. I'd describe the 1A as more organic, and romantic/warm; while with AK70II, more natural, and realistic. Note size is thicker with the 1A, and presentation more intimate. The AK70II I perceive has a cleaner sound, and more organized stage due to its leaner note size, and extra space in the layering + separation. YMMV.

How is the Zeus with your 1Z? Interesting EQ, personally I'd prefer the bass to be less because of my playlist. What do you mostly listen to?

 

[Deezel177]

Interesting observation there. Maybe the Phantom with an analytical source, would sound like the Zeus with a warmer source. Although probably not very similar due to their significantly different tuning and configuration, but it could be close.

I haven't try the 1Z, but I have the 1A. To me the Zeus + 1A pairing sounds more full-bodied, especially in the lower-midrange, but less detailed than AK70II. Although the Zeus hisses a bit with the 1A, it is relatively quieter when paired with AK70II, and much noisier with Opus#2. With the more analytical Opus#2 source, the Zeus sounds leaner, having less body, and warmth. The bass is tight, less powerful, and impact size smaller. The vocals sound cold, and thinner. With the AK70II, the Zeus sounds tonally more balanced, and 'right'. I'd describe the 1A as more organic, and romantic/warm; while with AK70II, more natural, and realistic. Note size is thicker with the 1A, and presentation more intimate. The AK70II I perceive has a cleaner sound, and more organized stage due to its leaner note size, and extra space in the layering + separation. YMMV.

How is the Zeus with your 1Z? Interesting EQ, personally I'd prefer the bass to be less because of my playlist. What do you mostly listen to?

These impressions - especially the ones regarding the WM1A and the AK70 - line up almost perfectly with mine. The AK70 alleviates the Zeus’s lower-treble peak for a more coherent tone, while the Kai mod adds upper-treble sparkle for added air and clarity. Conversely, the WM1A (or my MS-modded one anyway) takes advantage of the Zeus’s hefty lower-midrange to create full-bodied notes. Its more natural upper-treble also contributes to a more natural timbre. But - with certain recordings - it leaves that lower-treble peak sticking out like a sore thumb relative to the rest of the frequency response.

But, what the MS-modded WM1A excels in is background blackness, image solidity and note physicality. Despite a warmer timbre and fuller note structure, dynamic energy is maintained through sheer physicality. Notes jump out of a pitch-black background with excellent texture and punch. Image solidity is also excellent due to an exceptionally-extended (yet not accentuated) treble, creating a romantic and natural stage without any sense of congestion or sluggishness.

Pairing the MS-WM1A with the Phantom yields a warm, supple and silky-smooth tone, but without darkness or roll-off. It matches the Phantom’s tangible, physical and visceral sense of resolution, and produces one of the most dynamic, impactful and resonant midranges I’ve ever heard - period. Again, full details will be up on the THL article (which I’m making great progress on), but as you can probably tell, I am very, very excited about the products to come.

 

[NaiveSound]

These impressions - especially the ones regarding the WM1A and the AK70 - line up almost perfectly with mine. The AK70 alleviates the Zeus’s lower-treble peak for a more coherent tone, while the Kai mod adds upper-treble sparkle for added air and clarity. Conversely, the WM1A (or my MS-modded one anyway) takes advantage of the Zeus’s hefty lower-midrange to create full-bodied notes. Its more natural upper-treble also contributes to a more natural timbre. But - with certain recordings - it leaves that lower-treble peak sticking out like a sore thumb relative to the rest of the frequency response.

But, what the MS-modded WM1A excels in is background blackness, image solidity and note physicality. Despite a warmer timbre and fuller note structure, dynamic energy is maintained through sheer physicality. Notes jump out of a pitch-black background with excellent texture and punch. Image solidity is also excellent due to an exceptionally-extended (yet not accentuated) treble, creating a romantic and natural stage without any sense of congestion or sluggishness.

Pairing the MS-WM1A with the Phantom yields a warm, supple and silky-smooth tone, but without darkness or roll-off. It matches the Phantom’s tangible, physical and visceral sense of resolution, and produces one of the most dynamic, impactful and resonant midranges I’ve ever heard - period. Again, full details will be up on the THL article (which I’m making great progress on), but as you can probably tell, I am very, very excited about the products to come.

What FR range do you think Zeus has a low treble peak

 

[ctsooner22]

I"m glad that the source/DAC question has come up again. That to me, is HUGE. That's why I want to always know what reviewers or posters are using when I read their thoughts. Coming from the uber expensive 2 channel community, I can tell you that even subtle, but positive differences can cost thousands of $$$$ (or pounds or Singapore dollars or yen or...). I am BLESSED to own the best (to my ear) AK380cu along with a Mojo and an Audioquest Red mk 2. I will also use my home system DAC/amp that is just sick good. To my ear, it bests the Woo amps/Dac's I've put up against it and now I'll have my new source/dac by teh time I will get the Phantom and maybe even a Bravado in IEM for the wife (Phantom will be CIEM as I've never owned one and wanted no more tip hassles). I'll have a gamut of high end gear to throw up against it and I'm sure I'll learn even more about my gear. I will need to purchase a new headphone amp with the new source/dac as it won't have one built in (it's totally maximized for sound and that's it, lol).

I do wish I had been able to audition the Ak380cu vs the Sony as that Sony looks like a really great player too and the ergonomics seem better to me.

I find it interesting that most folks use different IEM's/CIEM's for different music. I grew up thinking that you get the best speaker that is the most neutral to your ear, with full extension etc... In 2 channel, we may have an extra system in the bedroom or office, but few if any can afford 2 world class (for whatever you can afford) systems with different speakers, lol. I personally don't even like some of the top 'named' speakers on the market, even though they may be better with lesser recordings as my Vandersteen's are the most detailed speakers I've ever heard. They are also can be warm if that's what they are fed etc... It's easier to carry 2 or even 3 pair of IEM's in your backpack than it is having 2 sets of 100 lb each speakers in your house, lol. Also rooms vary so much that they change the game too. Many can also afford a 2k IEM and also a 600 IEM (usd). That in high end audio will buy you an entry level pair of Vandersteen 2's, that really are killer, but you then need to feed them, have a source and then you have amplification and hopefully something left over for nice cable/power cords. Then there is the room. I can spend a couple of hundred on quilts to absorb, a large rug in front of the speakers so the sound isn't hard adn some plants to break up the sound waves on the sides of the speakers so you don't worry about that first bounce coming back to smear the sound.

Teh fun part of this game is that the room is taken care of inside the IEM. ....The 'room treatment's' are the tips if you go IEM route, or just go CIEM if you can and avoid all of that. Wires? They come with very good ones based on what you all have said, so that's awesome and easy for many of us who don't want to tinker too much. To me, portable audio is so I don't need to think. I want to pick up and listen in a room that I don't have a good system in or on the go.

What a great hobby this is and I can promise you that the board members are just awesome and respectful. I think you guys are younger overall, that many of we 2 channel folks. Daniel's previous post just got me thinking about the differences and similarities of teh communities. Heck, on the 2 channel one, I'm the 'reviewer' if you would and I answer about 10 different PM's a day with questions. This is neat learning from Nic, Daniel, Pinky ((forget your real name, sorry) and all the rest of you. Respectful, fun and all about teh music and enjoyment of it. It's opened my eyes for the 2 channel hobby too. Thanks again.

 

[subguy812]

Did anyone post the frequency graphs with the se5u vs. phantom?

 

[Deezel177]

What FR range do you think Zeus has a low treble peak

If I were to venture a somewhat educated guess, I’d say that it’s around 7-8kHz. It aids vocal articulation more than anything, and it can introduce sibilance if properly aggravaged or ill-paired.

 

[subguy812]

If I were to venture a somewhat educated guess, I’d say that it’s around 7-8kHz. It aids vocal articulation more than anything, and it can introduce sibilance if properly aggravaged or ill-paired.

While that frequency range can have some aggravated sibilance maybe I am an anomaly here but I've never heard it with the Zeus, even with neutralish DAPs. I have no sources that are bright I tend to avoid that.

 

[Deezel177]

While that frequency range can have some aggravated sibilance maybe I am an anomaly here but I've never heard it with the Zeus, even with neutralish DAPs. I have no sources that are bright I tend to avoid that.

It’s entirely dependent on tracks as well. Even within an album, some tracks can provoke that sibilance while others don’t. Eric Benet’s 2016 album comes to mind. It’s also a very specific peak with minimal consequence towards the overall signature, so it’s just as likely to appear on a neutral-sounding DAP as it is likely to appear on a warm one.

 

[subguy812]

It’s entirely dependent on tracks as well. Even within an album, some tracks can provoke that sibilance while others don’t. Eric Benet’s 2016 album comes to mind. It’s also a very specific peak with minimal consequence towards the overall signature, so it’s just as likely to appear on a neutral-sounding DAP as it is likely to appear on a warm one.

And I think it's fair for us to agree to disagree. I agree there are those occasional tracks that may prompt some sibilance. However, the odds are if you are using a bright source sibilance will be more prevelant than an occasional bright track. Again, I've never heard it with the Zeus while using a neutral sounding DAP and certainly not a DAP that is south of neutral. But hey what do I know you guys are obviously the experts.

 

[Deezel177]

And I think it's fair for us to agree to disagree. I agree there are those occasional tracks that may prompt some sibilance. However, the odds are if using a bright source sibilance will be more prevelant than an occasional bright track. Again, I've never heard it with the Zeus while using a neutral sounding Dap and certainly not a DAP that is south of neutral. But hey what do I know you guys are obviously the experts.

A lot of factors can come into play with regards to this specific peak and its effects: Track production, DAP selection, listening volumes, cable pairings, universal vs. custom fit, etc. To me, 7-8kHz does not determine brightness in timbre, just like how the AAW W900 can have a terrible 10-12kHz peak that overtly emphasises hi-hats and still maintain an overall warmish tone. These are simply my observations based on things I've picked up during EQ sessions at work, and I'm not at all trying to discredit your thoughts whatsoever. All I'm trying to do is suggest that it's very possible for this peak to not be noticeable given the correct conditions. I hope you don't take my replies in any other way.

 

[proedros]

i get zero sibilance from my XR (pairedwith sony wm1a and pwaudio no5 cable 4-braid) but i know that most commercial music made in the last 10-15 tends to suck in its dynamic range and tends to sound shrill and very badly mastered/compressed (aka ''Loudness War'' )

but with the music i hear (well recorded/mastered 70s/80s funk/soul/disco/boogie) i get zero sibilance and sound is great

 

[subguy812]

i get zero sibilance from my XR (pairedwith sony wm1a and pwaudio no5 cable 4-braid) but i know that most commercial music made in the last 10-15 tends to suck in its dynamic range and tends to sound shrill and very badly mastered/compressed (aka ''Loudness War'' )

but with the music i hear (well recorded/mastered 70s/80s funk/soul/disco/boogie) i get zero sibilance and sound is great

My thoughts exactly since we were talking about Zeus anyway.