Empire Ears - Discussion & Impressions (Formerly EarWerkz)
Apr 3, 2023 at 6:20 AM Post #37,666 of 40,611
I think EE doesn't release new models often like other High-end brands .
With Diversity and Difference from other brands , they make more model , more options , more choice , more way and more taste.
Give them a lot of opportunities to learn from past mistakes and develop the better product from a lot of feedback .

I'm not saying which brand is better. But if you are going to fight with others , you should have a strategy and learn about your competitors. Smart move , make it fast .
I'm not here to fight fanboys , but I would like to see further development to fight with competitors quickly.
(Take a simple example, such as matter of fitting.) :smiley_cat:

I'm still cheering and anticipating EE until I can't see how EE can compete with other brands.
There are more things than I can say , that's my mind.
 
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Apr 3, 2023 at 6:46 AM Post #37,667 of 40,611
Great to see your post. I think many are the same way. I love the Odins. I’ll keep them for a long time. Being a two channel guy, who needs portable, I’m blessed to have found EE and this thread. Got to audition so many high end IEMs in Japan and loved Odins best (bias maybe).
 
Apr 3, 2023 at 7:59 PM Post #37,669 of 40,611
Yea this hobby is a money pit lol.

This is the way.

12 Driver Quadbrid
Dual W9+ (with some minor internal tweaks)
Five Balanced Armatures
Four Electrostatics
W10 Bone Conductor

Price: Slightly above Odin
ETA: Late May/June
I think, apart from that, the Raven’s treble also extends far further than the ODIN, EVO or Odyssey. The added air and headroom casts more of a light on everything else, so those bass notes are etched with cleaner, sharper lines, which is what you’re hearing when you say they’re more discernible.

BTW, ‘kinda random, but I tried to draw the Raven’s internals from memory. They had an earlier prototype of it with a clear shell. It was actually super symmetrical and satisfying. :D

68F08FD9-0E7F-4025-A155-86C6B68AC67E.png

Hurray for us folks obsessed with symmetry!

Hey All!
I haven't posted much in the past. I'd just go on Head-Fi every few years when I wanted to upgrade---and get much needed opinions. I've recently retired (from touring) and have a bit more time on my hands.
Let me introduce myself for those who don't know me. My name is Michael Arnopol and I'm a professional jazz bassist and speaker designer. I've played on well over 100 recordings---some that have won Grammy's.I'm known the most by my playing with jazz vocalist Patricia Barber---but i've toured and recorded with many other artists.
I'm just saying this to give a perspective on where I'm coming from. I was introduced to high end headphones back in 2010 when I was asked to be a beta tester for Jerry Harvey's JH 13. I also played at the Chicago Can Jam that year with my trio. About four years ago I got back into headphone listening---with a vengence.Since I have the financial challenges of a working artist, I can only afford one can, and one source at a time.I was fortunate that some of the manufacturers knew my work and were kind enough to make some of the higher end gears a bit more attainable for me. (most of the musicians that make the music you listen to could never afford the gear you use!)
As far as cans, I've owned the LCD I4, the Verite closed, the HE1000se, The Meze Liric, and the EVO. Fortunately I have a few friends in town that have owned almost everything, and I've had the ability to try them.
I wanted to offer a bit different take on the EVO.
I only stream from Qobuz through Audirvana. I use Audirvana because it gives me the ability to use studio grade plugins.Probably the BEST investment I've made is Fabfilter's Pro Eq. It cracks me up when people say "I don't use eq--I want to hear what the artist and engineer intended: Well--you're hearing what the producer intended--oftentimes at odds with the artist and engineer.And---some engineers suck. Even good ones screw up.I often
times disagree with the balance of the low end. And---EVERY headphone I've ever heard benefits from eq. It's impossible to make something perfect. Also---I don't completely agree with the Harmon Curve.I feel that the bass is exaggerated .
I play bass. Acoustic and electric. I want the bass correct. I don't listen for fun. I listen to transcend the gear I'm listening through.And if there is too much midbass (the biggest thing most designers are guilty of--it gives an exegerrated perception of bass) or too much upper bass/lower mids (puts a blanket over everything above it, but gives an exagerrated sense of "warmth") it draws my attention to that---which I don't want. Some of the Patricia Barber recordings have won Gammy's for engineering, and two were on Stereophile's "Cd's to Die For" I only mention this because I know exactly what my upright or electric bass sound like. There is a song--"Ode to Billy Joe" that is just bass and voice. The great Jim Anderson recorded and produced it. I hate listening to anything that I'm on, but with that cut---I can tell exactly what my bass should sound like. Too much lower bass---it sounds like reggae. Too much mid or upper bass--it's not my bass.On the vocals---I know exactly what she sounds like. This cut is still used by many to assess gear. I am varied in my listening--actually I listen to less jazz than other music!
The EVO. Without EQ---at least for me---I can't listen to it. (I don't really like anything without some eq) I bring it down 5db in the low end just to match the Harmon Curve! When properly eq'd---it's amazing. But---Everyone here just discusses various cans with the voicing as the main standard. I couldn't care less about voicing. I'll eq to the voicing that I prefer. (which is obviously not everyon's preference---whatever gets you lost in the music!) I can get any two headphones voiced the same. But they don't SOUND the same! One quality that I like to talk about is the "note envelope". How the note starts, how it develops, and how it decays---for me this is the most important element of bass response. If the attack or decay ain't perfect---the bass is wrong. Many dynamic driver low ends lose in this department. DD drivers can move air and give weight to the low end, but they are not as good at decay. I love planars in this respect----but the DD's can give more note weight. The hangover between notes in DD drivers can obscure the pace of the bass line.
Why I LOVE the EVO. The BEST implementation of the Bone Conduction Driver. It restores the physicality of the music. This is something no frequency response can do. My bass doesn't just sound like my bass---the physical feeling of me playing my bass is like I've never experienced. I have spent my life standing next to drums and pianos---as well as all other instruments. I've heard snare drums sound really great--but until the Evo, I haven't felt the snare like I do standing next to one.On the album by Steeley Dan " Two Against Nature" the snare is recorded pretty aggressively. On some cans---it can take your head off. But with the Evo (there are at least three different drummers on it) not only do I get the physical sense, but I can clearly tell the difference between the various snares. The BCD doesn't just improve the bass---cymbals have just the correct physical "ping", pianos have the right weight of attack. It feels like when I'm standing next to the piano. Because of this accuracy, I can tell you what kind of electric bass is being played.
I love the D'Angelo album "Voodoo" For the first time I could easily tell that Pino Palladino was playing the first cut with his fingers, and the second with a pick. And due to the combination of elements--the Evo has the best localization in 3d that I've heard. (after I eq'd--Sorry!) I can tell that there are three backup singers on the right to middle. I can hear that there are three, and what pitch each is singing!
I have a few rich buddies in town that I can live (or listen ) vicariously through. I've tried the Evo agaist the Odin. I liked the EST treble better. Even with the same eq, there is just a "correctness" to EST treble IMO. But the Evo wastes it in physicality. The bass is good in the Odin--but on recordings I've played on--it "sounds" right, but I feel like I'm listening to me, not that I'm actually playing. A buddy just got the Multiverse. Boy does that sound nice! Again--EST treble. But the implementation of the BCD in the Evo is better than the Multiverse for me. I think that it may be the combination of the DD and BCD as opposed to a BA low end. (the Multiverse is BA, right?)
Another thing---I'm using the Evo as an in-ear monitor for some live gigs. The first time I've had a grin on my face with in-ears.I'm not missing the physicality of the amp next to me. Some buddies of mine were recording at a high-end studio in town that a buddy owns. I asked the guys to try this against the studio cans. Of course it sounded better, but the drummer freaked. "I can feel my bass drum and snare kick" The piano player. sax player and guitarist felt the same--- they were fighting as to who could use them for the rest of the session.

Sorry about being so verbose. I just think that the Evo is so much better than it has been pigeonholed as a "bass head can."I hope to have the opportunity to hear the Odyssey or Raven. They sound like exactly what I've been looking for. (although I doubt I could afford them---even used!!!).But in the interim, I can get completely lost in the music with the Evo.
.

Welcome! Happy to have you here.

I MISS my CIEM's...If the Odin's started out with that version, I'd have been set, lol.

Posts like these remind me why I love my Odin so much :)
 
Apr 4, 2023 at 7:08 PM Post #37,670 of 40,611
It took a while but Raven did finally dethrone the Odin for me. I haven't AB'd them yet but if you're familiar with the EE sound, it's very apparently from the first track that Raven goes even beyond.

Normally there have been compromises made in order for that signature bass to shine, but with the Raven I don't feel like I'm settling on anything. It's truly EE's most unique IEM within their own modern catalogue, and yet maybe one of the more traditional sounding ones looking from the outside in.

This isn't a bad thing, but as someone who used to be obsessed with all rounders, this is it. It's EE's own take on the all rounder, because you still get more bass than the LX, but better tonal balance across the spectrum with Odin levels of technicality and clarity. It's not just another "all rounder" IEM you've heard before.

My only regret was not getting more time with it at CanJam! So on that note I can't speak to how fatiguing it might get in the lower end, but honestly it is a deceptively balanced sounding IEM. It's got Empire's bass DNA and does a good job at everything else.

Shout out to @Deezel177, his Singapore write up described the sound of the Raven perfectly imo
 
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Apr 4, 2023 at 7:28 PM Post #37,671 of 40,611
It took a while but Raven did finally dethrone the Odin for me. I haven't AB'd them yet but if you're familiar with the EE sound, it's very apparently from the first track that Raven goes even beyond.

Normally there have been compromises made in order for that signature bass to shine, but with the Raven I don't feel like I'm settling on anything. It's truly EE's most unique IEM within their own modern catalogue, and yet maybe one of the more traditional sounding ones looking from the outside in.

This isn't a bad thing, but as someone who used to be obsessed with all rounders, this is it. It's EE's own take on the all rounder, because you still get more bass than the LX, but better tonal balance across the spectrum with Odin levels of technicality and clarity. It's not just another "all rounder" IEM you've heard before.

My only regret was not getting more time with it at CanJam! So on that note I can't speak to how fatiguing it might get in the lower end, but honestly it is a deceptively balanced sounding IEM. It's got Empire's bass DNA and does a good job at everything else.

Shout out to @Deezel177, his Singapore write up described the sound of the Raven perfectly imo
Upon first listen, I realized I was the least intrigued in the wow factor of Raven over other EE products, but more impressed by the overall tonality as a whole. Odins detail and razor sharp clarity blew me away. Legend EVO’s W10 and bass implementation pumped up the adrenaline with incredible bass and dense tonal balance for what it was. Odyssey, to me was like, this is it. You finally addressed the treble. But with Raven, I just kinda sat there and listened to the music. It struck me as a matured LX, Traillii - esque type vibe. It’s very revealing and smooth at the same time but with great air and transparency. I honestly think people who love the Traillii but miss DD bass and BC will find themselves extremely pleased with Raven. Ironic that it’s also a bird.
 
Apr 4, 2023 at 9:09 PM Post #37,672 of 40,611
Does anyone have any indication on when the raven will be released?
 
Apr 5, 2023 at 9:36 AM Post #37,675 of 40,611
will there be a custom version of Raven or just uni ?
EVO does not have a custom due to the W10 Bone Conductor, so Raven probably won't either.
 
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Apr 5, 2023 at 9:44 AM Post #37,676 of 40,611
EVO does not have a custom due to the W10 Bone Conductor, so Raven probably won't either.
They’ve developed a custom tri-brid prototype with W10 that they’re giving out to a lot of their artists, so that isn’t an issue anymore. With Raven, I think the issue will be fitting the amount of parts it has. It’ll need big ears, so, even if they do offer a custom, it’ll be on a case-by-case basis. More often than not, brands in that position would take the safe route and not offer a custom option at all.
 
Apr 5, 2023 at 9:53 AM Post #37,677 of 40,611
They’ve developed a custom tri-brid prototype with W10 that they’re giving out to a lot of their artists, so that isn’t an issue anymore. With Raven, I think the issue will be fitting the amount of parts it has. It’ll need big ears, so, even if they do offer a custom, it’ll be on a case-by-case basis. More often than not, brands in that position would take the safe route and not offer a custom option at all.
^^ This and I also believe faceplate material or designs would be very limited as some materials interact poorly with W10 resonance.
 
Apr 5, 2023 at 9:58 AM Post #37,678 of 40,611
That's a shame. EE's BCD seems to be quite contact dependent, I can only imagine how much more effective it would be with 100% custom contact.

Maybe it's time for a W11 (perhaps on that rumored Evo2)? There are competing BCD implementations already that don't seem as distance dependent and fit into quite compact shells. Several already offer quadbrids with BCD in CIEM (UM, FiR etc).
 
Apr 5, 2023 at 10:02 AM Post #37,679 of 40,611
That's a shame. EE's BCD seems to be quite contact dependent, I can only imagine how much more effective it would be with 100% custom contact.

Maybe it's time for a W11 (perhaps on that rumored Evo2)? There are competing BCD implementations already that don't seem as distance dependent and fit into quite compact shells. Several already offer quadbrids with BCD in CIEM (UM, FiR etc).

The BCD technology in the kinetic bass from FiR is different to UM and EE though. There isn’t a literal “bone conduction driver” inside these IEMs like how you can see the silver disc like driver in the Evo, Odyssey, Mentor, etc.

Like @Deezel177 said , I think a lot of the issues with custom bcd from EE actually stems more from their dual DD configurations, even the Legend X is quite a roomy CIEM, throw in some EST and BCD drivers and it requires even more space that just won’t work for a large majority of ears.
 

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