DUNU DN-2000J -- More Than Evolution?

[WhatToChoose]

  In the light of soon five years in this hobby and having owned and regularly listened to several TOTL IEMs I find it more than unlikely that the 2000J will ever be described in overall negative terms by any review. The J isn't perfect, but in my opinion it as as close to perfect as I've been so far. Unlike many other IEMs I've had I've noticed it makes me smile every time a listen to it and that's what triggered me to get my own copy.

Ya know, you are REALLY starting to turn my wallet on....
 
Had a question for you by the way: You said earlier that you don't believe in brain burn-in, why is this so? I found that when switching between headphones, it takes a small amount of time to adjust to the different sound signature. I am just curious as to your view on the matter Any burn in at all?

 

[Paulus XII]

 
Ya know, you are REALLY starting to turn my wallet on....
 
Had a question for you by the way: You said earlier that you don't believe in brain burn-in, why is this so? I found that when switching between headphones, it takes a small amount of time to adjust to the different sound signature. I am just curious as to your view on the matter Any burn in at all?

 
Not sure, of course, but I think you will just notice a slight difference in the dynamic driver (bass). I have experienced a change in a BA before, namely W40 (treble), but consensus is that Balanced Armature drivers don't change.
 
FWIW I haven't notice any change in the DN-1000's BAs.

 

[Aero Dynamik]

 

  In the light of soon five years in this hobby and having owned and regularly listened to several TOTL IEMs I find it more than unlikely that the 2000J will ever be described in overall negative terms by any review. The J isn't perfect, but in my opinion it as as close to perfect as I've been so far. Unlike many other IEMs I've had I've noticed it makes me smile every time a listen to it and that's what triggered me to get my own copy.

Ya know, you are REALLY starting to turn my wallet on....
 
Had a question for you by the way: You said earlier that you don't believe in brain burn-in, why is this so? I found that when switching between headphones, it takes a small amount of time to adjust to the different sound signature. I am just curious as to your view on the matter Any burn in at all?

I didn't mean it literally. It was more meant as a joke. Generally I don't believe in burn in at all, especially in BA drivers because of the material used and how they work. That doesn't mean that burn in doesn't happen. It's just that I'm not sure I can hear it. So, if I hear a difference in the frequencies generated by the BA drivers I'm generally inclined to attribute it to - yes - brain burn in.
 
As I wrote in a previous post I no longer have any complaints about the treble of the DN-2000J at all. On the contrary, I now find it to be as stellar as the rest of the phone; crystal clear, super resolving, and non sibilant. The reason for this is of course difficult to establish. It could be a matter of burn in of the BA drivers, the dynamic driver, or the brain, or a combination of them all.
 
My guess though is that it indeed takes several hundred of hours to burn in the titanium-treated dynamic driver but that once this has been accomplished it effects the treble, or perhaps more likely the perception of the treble. So, when it comes to dynamic drivers, especially the titanium-treated ones, I'm now sort of inclined to believe in burn in.
 
I believe it was Brooko who mentioned that DUNU's engineers do recommend at least 100 hours of burn in. Considering my personal experience I'd say that's something I can no longer ignore, and I'm not sure I'd trust any reviewer that hasn't put at least 200 hours on them.
 
So conclusively, and to any DN-2000J owners out there who aren't perfectly happy with the treble, my advice is; just keep burning'em!

 

[WhatToChoose]

I didn't mean it literally. It was more meant as a joke. Generally I don't believe in burn in at all, especially in BA drivers because of the material used and how they work. That doesn't mean that burn in doesn't happen. It's just that I'm not sure I can hear it. So, if I hear a difference in the frequencies generated by the BA drivers I'm generally inclined to attribute it to - yes - brain burn in.

As I wrote in a previous post I no longer have any complaints about the treble of the DN-2000J at all. On the contrary, I now find it to be as stellar as the rest of the phone; crystal clear, super resolving, and non sibilant. The reason for this is of course difficult to establish. It could be a matter of burn in of the BA drivers, the dynamic driver, or the brain, or a combination of them all.

My guess though is that it indeed takes several hundred of hours to burn in the titanium-treated dynamic driver but that once this has been accomplished it effects the treble, or perhaps more likely the perception of the treble. So, when it comes to dynamic drivers, especially the titanium-treated ones, I'm now sort of inclined to believe in burn in.

I believe it was Brooko who mentioned that DUNU's engineers do recommend at least 100 hours of burn in. Considering my personal experience I'd say that's something I can no longer ignore, and I'm not sure I'd trust any reviewer that hasn't put at least 200 hours on them.

So conclusively, and to any DN-2000J owners out there who aren't perfectly happy with the treble, my advice is; just keep burning'em!

Your joke went miles over my head lol, my bad! But your description of these....so enticinggg

 

[Aero Dynamik]

 

I didn't mean it literally. It was more meant as a joke. Generally I don't believe in burn in at all, especially in BA drivers because of the material used and how they work. That doesn't mean that burn in doesn't happen. It's just that I'm not sure I can hear it. So, if I hear a difference in the frequencies generated by the BA drivers I'm generally inclined to attribute it to - yes - brain burn in.

As I wrote in a previous post I no longer have any complaints about the treble of the DN-2000J at all. On the contrary, I now find it to be as stellar as the rest of the phone; crystal clear, super resolving, and non sibilant. The reason for this is of course difficult to establish. It could be a matter of burn in of the BA drivers, the dynamic driver, or the brain, or a combination of them all.

My guess though is that it indeed takes several hundred of hours to burn in the titanium-treated dynamic driver but that once this has been accomplished it effects the treble, or perhaps more likely the perception of the treble. So, when it comes to dynamic drivers, especially the titanium-treated ones, I'm now sort of inclined to believe in burn in.

I believe it was Brooko who mentioned that DUNU's engineers do recommend at least 100 hours of burn in. Considering my personal experience I'd say that's something I can no longer ignore, and I'm not sure I'd trust any reviewer that hasn't put at least 200 hours on them.

So conclusively, and to any DN-2000J owners out there who aren't perfectly happy with the treble, my advice is; just keep burning'em!

Your joke went miles over my head lol, my bad! But your description of these....so enticinggg

If the DN-2000J has the kind of signature your looking for there's just no way it's going to disappoint you! What it does it does better - with a pretty wide margin - than any other phone I've heard.

 

[james444]

  Oh, I should mention that I no longer use james444's excellent blu-tack mod. I simply don't need it, but I guess the explanation could be that my hearing stops at about 12 kHz. Or, the BA drivers are now properly burnt in 

.

 
The 2000J's treble spikes are in the sibilance range, 6-8 kHz, so I don't think your 12 kHz limit has anything to do with it. But people have different sensitivities and you just don't seem to be particularly sensitive to spikes in that range.
 
Edit: ...which is actually great, considering that the VE Dukes I'll send you have a similar tendency towards sibilance. 

 

 

[Shure or bust]

Should I buy the 2000 for less than $200 or buy the 2000j instead ? Is it really a big improvement ?

 

[Aero Dynamik]

 

  Oh, I should mention that I no longer use james444's excellent blu-tack mod. I simply don't need it, but I guess the explanation could be that my hearing stops at about 12 kHz. Or, the BA drivers are now properly burnt in 

.

 
The 2000J's treble spikes are in the sibilance range, 6-8 kHz, so I don't think your 12 kHz limit has anything to do with it. But people have different sensitivities and you just don't seem to be particularly sensitive to spikes in that range.
 
Edit: ...which is actually great, considering that the VE Dukes I'll send you have a similar tendency towards sibilance. 

 

I think I can safely conclude that you don't believe in BA burn in. 

 
I really wonder why I perceive the treble so differently now compared to how I perceived it initially. I don't know how many hours I've put on it since I got it but it should be quite a bit.
 
The most plausible explanation is of course brain burn in. On the other hand people in this thread have reported that they perceive the treble less sibilant/hot with the bass ring, and that's why I'm thinking burn in of the titanium treated DD could be the explanation.
 
What would be your opinion? Let me guess; brain burn in! 

 

[Aero Dynamik]

Should I buy the 2000 for less than $200 or buy the 2000j instead ? Is it really a big improvement ?

The tuning share similarities but the competence of the DN-2000J is hugely greater than that of the DN-2000. If you ask me the price difference is more than motivated. If AKG, Shure, JH Audio or some other well known IEM maker had released this phone and charged a $1000 for it or more it wouldn't have surprised me.
 
Detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, and sound stage are absolutely stellar on this phone and easily outperforms the DN-2000.
 
The DN-2000 is no slouch though, on the contrary. It's a very good phone too, but it you have the extra $100 it's unquestionably worth it if you ask me.

 

[Brooko]

  I think I can safely conclude that you don't believe in BA burn in. 

 
I really wonder why I perceive the treble so differently now compared to how I perceived it initially. I don't know how many hours I've put on it since I got it but it should be quite a bit.
 
The most plausible explanation is of course brain burn in. On the other hand people in this thread have reported that they perceive the treble less sibilant/hot with the bass ring, and that's why I'm thinking burn in of the titanium treated DD could be the explanation.
 
What would be your opinion? Let me guess; brain burn in! 

 
Here's a graph showing the effect of the bass rings.  This is raw data (uncalibrated), and only meant to show comparisons between default and bass ring fitted.  Notice how the bass is definitely affected, yet the mid-range and lower treble is not much affected at all - and definitely not in the sibilance range (5-8K).
 
As far as BA burn-in goes, people will believe what they want to, and if it helps them enjoy the earphones more, then more power to them.  DUNU themselves claim burn-in (200 hours).  I've had the chance to try a brand new DN-1000 vs much older one, and also brand new DN-2000 vs well broken in one - and to me there was no difference between new and old. This was side-by-side - switching as fast as I could.  Shure's engineers have also come out and said openly that their BA's don't burn in.
 
My personal opinion is that what you're hearing is probably more a case of masking (more bass affecting higher frequency perception), and/or you're simply getting used to them.  As long as you're enjoying them though - it doesn't really matter 

 

 

[Brooko]

Should I buy the 2000 for less than $200 or buy the 2000j instead ? Is it really a big improvement ?

 
Depends on your preference.  I just measured both as it's easier to show you.  Again - this is uncalibrated raw data - but it gives a good idea comparatively of what you can expect.
 
The 2000J is relatively flat, with a slight mid-bass hump, presence area in the vocals at around 2K, and again in the 5-7K area.  This gives it exceptional clarity - and euphonics (especially with female vocals). People who have sibilance sensitivity around the 6-7K area may find this problematic, especially at higher volume.  For me it's never been an issue.
 
The original 2000 had much more bass (especially sub-bass), and less brightness through the upper mids and lower treble. The result is a warmer, lusher, smooth sound - without the clarity of the 2000J.
 
Both are very different earphones sonically.
 
I really like the 2000J - but the 2000 not so much.  So it depends on your preferences.
 

 
Shotgunshane posted a calibrated and compensated graph a couple of pages ago of the 2000J.  This might also be helpful, as it's closer to what you will really hear.

 

[Aero Dynamik]

   

Spoiler: Wiarnng: Sipoler!

  I think I can safely conclude that you don't believe in BA burn in. 

 
I really wonder why I perceive the treble so differently now compared to how I perceived it initially. I don't know how many hours I've put on it since I got it but it should be quite a bit.
 
The most plausible explanation is of course brain burn in. On the other hand people in this thread have reported that they perceive the treble less sibilant/hot with the bass ring, and that's why I'm thinking burn in of the titanium treated DD could be the explanation.
 
What would be your opinion? Let me guess; brain burn in! 

 

 
Here's a graph showing the effect of the bass rings.  This is raw data (uncalibrated), and only meant to show comparisons between default and bass ring fitted.  Notice how the bass is definitely affected, yet the mid-range and lower treble is not much affected at all - and definitely not in the sibilance range (5-8K).
 
As far as BA burn-in goes, people will believe what they want to, and if it helps them enjoy the earphones more, then more power to them.  DUNU themselves claim burn-in (200 hours).  I've had the chance to try a brand new DN-1000 vs much older one, and also brand new DN-2000 vs well broken in one - and to me there was no difference between new and old. This was side-by-side - switching as fast as I could.  Shure's engineers have also come out and said openly that their BA's don't burn in.
 
My personal opinion is that what you're hearing is probably more a case of masking (more bass affecting higher frequency perception), and/or you're simply getting used to them.  As long as you're enjoying them though - it doesn't really matter 

 

I agree that your conclusion most likely is the correct one, i.e. a combination of brain and possibly DD burn in. Sure, it doesn't matter to me personally why this change of treble perception has come about, but if it could be established that DD burn in is a critical performance factor it could be of significant importance to others.
 
One difference between the DN-1000 and DN-2000 on the one hand and the DN-2000J on the other hand is the titanium treated DD. While I don't believe in BA burn in I don't find it unlikely that burn in affects the titanium treated DD. My first thought was that such DD would be less susceptible to burn in due to the titanium, but on second thought I realized I had no real knowledge about the titanium works to draw any conclusions at all.
 
I feel that the fact that DUNU's engineers do recommend 200 hours of burn in strengthens my case.

 

[Aero Dynamik]

 

Should I buy the 2000 for less than $200 or buy the 2000j instead ? Is it really a big improvement ?

 
Depends on your preference.  I just measured both as it's easier to show you.  Again - this is uncalibrated raw data - but it gives a good idea comparatively of what you can expect.
 
The 2000J is relatively flat, with a slight mid-bass hump, presence area in the vocals at around 2K, and again in the 5-7K area.  This gives it exceptional clarity - and euphonics (especially with female vocals). People who have sibilance sensitivity around the 6-7K area may find this problematic, especially at higher volume.  For me it's never been an issue.
 
The original 2000 had much more bass (especially sub-bass), and less brightness through the upper mids and lower treble. The result is a warmer, lusher, smooth sound - without the clarity of the 2000J.
 
Both are very different earphones sonically.
 
I really like the 2000J - but the 2000 not so much.  So it depends on your preferences.
 

 
Shotgunshane posted a calibrated and compensated graph a couple of pages ago of the 2000J.  This might also be helpful, as it's closer to what you will really hear.

Overall the difference between the DN-2000 and the DN-2000J is so much more than just a matter of frequency response, i.e. how much or little bass, mids, treble we get. Although FR graphs are interesting they don't say much about features such as detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, sound stage and so on.
 
I guess that's what you're saying when you write "Both are very different earphones sonically." but I felt it needed to be clarified to anyone choosing between the two. That is, it's much more to it than just which phone is bassier and which one is brighter, etc.
 
In my book the DN-2000J is hugely more competent than its older sibling.

 

[Brooko]

  Overall the difference between the DN-2000 and the DN-2000J is so much more than just a matter of frequency response, i.e. how much or little bass, mids, treble we get. Although FR graphs are interesting they don't say much about features such as detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, sound stage and so on.
 
I guess that's what you're saying when you write "Both are very different earphones sonically." but I felt it needed to be clarified to anyone choosing between the two. That is, it's much more to it than just which phone is bassier and which one is brighter, etc.
 
In my book the DN-2000J is hugely more competent than its older sibling.

 
It would be wrong to say one is an upgrade over the other though.  They sound distinctly different.
 
My preference is for the 2000J
 
But is someone else's preference was a for a warmer, fuller, signature with less upper end emphasis (ie they were treble sensitive), then the last thing I'd suggest is choosing the 2000J over the 2000.  Saying one is more competent than the other is misleading.  They are very different, and frequency changes have far more effect and are at the crux of everything you mentioned ("detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, sound stage").

 

[Aero Dynamik]

 

  Overall the difference between the DN-2000 and the DN-2000J is so much more than just a matter of frequency response, i.e. how much or little bass, mids, treble we get. Although FR graphs are interesting they don't say much about features such as detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, sound stage and so on.
 
I guess that's what you're saying when you write "Both are very different earphones sonically." but I felt it needed to be clarified to anyone choosing between the two. That is, it's much more to it than just which phone is bassier and which one is brighter, etc.
 
In my book the DN-2000J is hugely more competent than its older sibling.

 
It would be wrong to say one is an upgrade over the other though.  They sound distinctly different.
 
My preference is for the 2000J
 
But is someone else's preference was a for a warmer, fuller, signature with less upper end emphasis (ie they were treble sensitive), then the last thing I'd suggest is choosing the 2000J over the 2000.  Saying one is more competent than the other is misleading.  They are very different, and frequency changes have far more effect and are at the crux of everything you mentioned ("detail retrieval, resolution, dynamics, sound stage").

I'm certainly no expert, but over the years I've experimented with EQ quite a bit and I never noticed it having an impact on - for example - detail retrieval, resolution, speed and dynamics. I think your belief in FR is exaggerated. Sound reproduction is a lot more complex than perfect FR.
 
FR will of course effect the overall signature of the sound (warmer, brighter, forward, etc.) but characteristics such as resolution, speed, dynamic responsiveness, etc.is the effect of other design choices, or so I would believe. If this wasn't case wouldn't it be meaningless to have, for example various kinds of driver types? We could then settle with a single IEM and simply apply EQ after our preferences.
 
I'm absolutely convinced the DN-2000J would still be more competent than the DN-2000 even if it would have the exact FR of the DN-2000J.