[Trysaeder]

I would say 80% of mid-fi sound is psychological. People want to hear a difference so their brains creates one. Some people have a personality that makes them perfect for hype mongering. If you could see the big 5 personality tests of all head fiers, I would be confident that the majority will be labelled as 'iNtuitive' over 'sensing', 'perceiving' over 'judging' and 'feeling' over 'thinking'. Combine it with the extremely difficult to measure and expensive nature of audiophilia, it allows companies to make a lot of money while making almost no difference.
 
A capable headphone that is equalized well will be unidentifiable from the phone that it is imitating, yet people still insist on buying similarly capable headphones whose only difference is frequency response. It is like those watch collectors my father tells me about, the ones who just cross off any electronic watch off their most wanted list because of the notion that mechanical is better. Price is better, I have to spend more to receive more. Those people with their price fixed high end grados are perfectly happy about the sound quality, because not many people own them, they paid a lot for them, and they perform at least competently. When the K701 was new, it cost a lot and people loved it. Now that it's cheap, there's no effort required to find anyone that dislikes it. Perhaps they would dislike it anyway if it cost twice as much, but perhaps they would not be vocal about it.
 
600 is a bigger number, it's harder to find, it's more expensive. It is not hard to see why it was automatically labelled as the top in the beyer line. Combined with the fact that beyer stated they used a lighter wire in the voice coil, the belief was cemented. No one asked whether beyer meant lighter wire, which would be wound around more in order to create the higher impedance, probably at a tiny difference in actual weight.
 
A statement that could be thrown around more than anything else is 'if you can't hear a difference, get your ears tested', implying that the person has a superior hearing. Perhaps I should respond with 'if you do hear a difference, get your brain tested, it's far more important'.

 

[hudamanium]

Thanks Trysader!
 
I usually don't like to point what you've just said out to people because a lot of people here pay so much for improvements that aren't really improvements. So I tend to leave them alone (whatever makes them happy right?) 
 
But, if Head-Fi continues to do this hype thing along with unfounded statements about cabling, ohmages, etc it will lose the respect of many people, especially people who come from a more logical and scientific background. I've already seen too many other forums tell people not to trust the community on head fi. We as a community need to be more careful about what we say because a lot of people read the threads here and we don't want to lose the quality of this site. 
 
Thanks for being a good member of the community! 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

I would say 80% of mid-fi sound is psychological. People want to hear a difference so their brains creates one. Some people have a personality that makes them perfect for hype mongering. If you could see the big 5 personality tests of all head fiers, I would be confident that the majority will be labelled as 'iNtuitive' over 'sensing', 'perceiving' over 'judging' and 'feeling' over 'thinking'. Combine it with the extremely difficult to measure and expensive nature of audiophilia, it allows companies to make a lot of money while making almost no difference.
 
A capable headphone that is equalized well will be unidentifiable from the phone that it is imitating, yet people still insist on buying similarly capable headphones whose only difference is frequency response. It is like those watch collectors my father tells me about, the ones who just cross off any electronic watch off their most wanted list because of the notion that mechanical is better. Price is better, I have to spend more to receive more. Those people with their price fixed high end grados are perfectly happy about the sound quality, because not many people own them, they paid a lot for them, and they perform at least competently. When the K701 was new, it cost a lot and people loved it. Now that it's cheap, there's no effort required to find anyone that dislikes it. Perhaps they would dislike it anyway if it cost twice as much, but perhaps they would not be vocal about it.
 
600 is a bigger number, it's harder to find, it's more expensive. It is not hard to see why it was automatically labelled as the top in the beyer line. Combined with the fact that beyer stated they used a lighter wire in the voice coil, the belief was cemented. No one asked whether beyer meant lighter wire, which would be wound around more in order to create the higher impedance, probably at a tiny difference in actual weight.
 
A statement that could be thrown around more than anything else is 'if you can't hear a difference, get your ears tested', implying that the person has a superior hearing. Perhaps I should respond with 'if you do hear a difference, get your brain tested, it's far more important'.

Have you heard both (250 ohm vs. 600) extensively back to back on reasonable gear?

 

[Trysaeder]

I've experienced that people tend to get defensive and emotional when they (or their gear) feel threatened, even subconciously, so I won't actually talk to you. 
I trust empirical people and not those that I know are predispositioned to act as I explained earlier.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs

 

[hudamanium]

Quote:

I've experienced that people tend to get defensive and emotional when they (or their gear) feel threatened, even subconciously, so I won't actually talk to you. 
I trust empirical people and not those that I know are predispositioned to act as I explained earlier.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs

 
Yep. Funny thing is EVERYONE does this. There are some people that can get over it and look at the hard data and some people can't... 

 

[Zombie_X]

IMO the 600Ohm model does sound better, but the differences between the models are not all that huge. This all depends on gear too as your gears changes the sound.

 

[Trysaeder]

Take a truck of salt, it's coming from a cable maker.
 
This is a great example of hype-fi. Make all the newbies burn money. A person with a heap of posts on a forum about headphones says so. No wonder audiophilia is the rarest way to pleasure our senses. Touch/feel is the most common 

 because it's free and makes you feel intensely good. Taste/smell is next, followed by sight then hearing.
The popular ones are either such great bang/buck that you don't need measurements, or are so common that you'll always run into it.

 

[lejaz]

Yes, I think that last sentence about 'getting your brain tested' holds a lot of truth. When I first upgraded the cable on my k702 I was expecting to hear an improvement and I did....or I thought I did, anyway. It's called expectation bias. After much extensive listening and comparing back and forth, I had to conclude that there was no difference, or if there was, it was so minimal that if I had to take a double blind test I wouldn't be able to tell which cable was which. Expectation bias and brain washing play a big part in how we perceive a whole lot of stuff...not just audio gear. I can't comment on the dt880's though, since I've never had a chance to compare the different impedance models. FWIR impedance can have a significant effect on frequency response
 
Quote:

I would say 80% of mid-fi sound is psychological. People want to hear a difference so their brains creates one. Some people have a personality that makes them perfect for hype mongering. If you could see the big 5 personality tests of all head fiers, I would be confident that the majority will be labelled as 'iNtuitive' over 'sensing', 'perceiving' over 'judging' and 'feeling' over 'thinking'. Combine it with the extremely difficult to measure and expensive nature of audiophilia, it allows companies to make a lot of money while making almost no difference.
 
A capable headphone that is equalized well will be unidentifiable from the phone that it is imitating, yet people still insist on buying similarly capable headphones whose only difference is frequency response. It is like those watch collectors my father tells me about, the ones who just cross off any electronic watch off their most wanted list because of the notion that mechanical is better. Price is better, I have to spend more to receive more. Those people with their price fixed high end grados are perfectly happy about the sound quality, because not many people own them, they paid a lot for them, and they perform at least competently. When the K701 was new, it cost a lot and people loved it. Now that it's cheap, there's no effort required to find anyone that dislikes it. Perhaps they would dislike it anyway if it cost twice as much, but perhaps they would not be vocal about it.
 
600 is a bigger number, it's harder to find, it's more expensive. It is not hard to see why it was automatically labelled as the top in the beyer line. Combined with the fact that beyer stated they used a lighter wire in the voice coil, the belief was cemented. No one asked whether beyer meant lighter wire, which would be wound around more in order to create the higher impedance, probably at a tiny difference in actual weight.
 
A statement that could be thrown around more than anything else is 'if you can't hear a difference, get your ears tested', implying that the person has a superior hearing. Perhaps I should respond with 'if you do hear a difference, get your brain tested, it's far more important'.

 

[Zombie_X]

Hey don't go bashin on me

, Just because I make cables does not make me biased on the headphones, I just prefer the 600Ohm versions because of my set-up.
 
I was just saying the difference between the Ohm models are not that big like some people can state. I personally like the sound of the 600Ohm model and prefer it, though my gear is lined up differently to make them sound warmer. A lot of the perceived differences in the different Ohm variants is mostly psychological IMO, but there are differences just not night and day, but more subtle. That's enough from me, I don't want to start a heated debate.
 
I also love the 250Ohm version and at around $200 that's a deal I would not pass up. to me the 600Ohm and 250Ohm versions sound nearly the same with differences. I might be picking up a pair of 250Ohm ones just to see how my WA3+ drives them and how they sound on my set-up.

 

[Trysaeder]

Wow I'm on a roll. 
 
Quote:

I've experienced that people tend to get defensive

 
I merely pointed out that you are a cable maker. However you interpret that is up to you, although I did expect the above. (yea I probably pointed out some hype-fier's stereotypical characteristics, but that's nothing personal)
 
 
I have the dt880/600 for several reasons, probably more than everyone else. 
1. Amps have too much gain. My m³ that I made has 11 gain; of course I can change it but for future upgrades or projects, the gain will usually be too high. I don't care how powerful your amp is to drive my cans at 9 o'clock. That's way too high and not a real show of power (hai gaiz, my amp has an 11 gain p3norz).
2. Resell value. Obvious reasons.
3. I'm not immune to auto suggestion, but I can admit it in myself and deal with it appropriately. No matter how much I reason to myself that the 250 sounds the same as the 600, I would still feel 'incomplete'. That's your fault.
4. It's cool when friends come over.
'oh nice headphone, can I try it on my ipod?'
'nah mate, it's a beast; 600 ohms. Only an amp made from my sweat and blood can drive it'
5. It's only a bit more expensive. $40 more and you've got a headphone that suits my needs perfectly, as well as loses 10-15% value compared to 15-20% of the 250.

 

[Slaughter]

Unless someone owns both and has a way to test both at the same time, on the same gear, matching volume, then people on both sides of the debate sound ignorant.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

I've experienced that people tend to get defensive and emotional when they (or their gear) feel threatened, even subconciously, so I won't actually talk to you. 


I trust empirical people and not those that I know are predispositioned to act as I explained earlier.


 


http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs

LoL, you quote a thread where the Op admitted to never hearing the 600 ohm version. Nice.

My question was what your experience was with both. That's it. Instead you attack me and Zombie. Two with extensive experience with these beyer cans. I simply asked you to qualify your experience. My pet peeve is those who make comments on gear they have NO experience with. The worst kind of trolling there is.
 
FWIW, I don't own either of these cans and no horse in this race....just real life personal experiences.

 

[Zombie_X]

I did interpret what you said in the wrong way

. I read it as though you were saying I had a biased look at it. So my bad there.
 
And yeah I can hype some stuff, but I know that the differences between the 600Ohm, 250Ohm, and 32Ohm models aren't that big at all.
 
The sound does change quite a bit with amping as I stated earlier as well, but the overall tone of each headphone as well as how they perform is all dependent on Source, DAC, and the Amp. The sound of each side by side is different, but not huge or OMG worthy. I also know I can sound a little biased at times, but I try not to.
 
And I chose the 600Ohm model because my WA3+ does have a bit too much gain for me. For me the volume is at about 1/4 of it's full volume and is loud on my DT880's. With the 250Ohm version it's about 1/8 of the max volume. With the T1's it's a little bit more than 1/4 of the volume. I wish I knew what tubes would lower the gain without sacrificing sound quality. So I know my WA3+ has far too much gain.
 
And I got my DT880/600 for right around $240 on Amazon a while back, same with the DT990/600 that I got for $224 as well.
 
If I was to buy them again, I would probably still go with the 600Ohm version, but I can live with the 250Ohm version.
 
Quote:

Wow I'm on a roll. 
 

 
I merely pointed out that you are a cable maker. However you interpret that is up to you, although I did expect the above. (yea I probably pointed out some hype-fier's stereotypical characteristics, but that's nothing personal)
 
 
I have the dt880/600 for several reasons, probably more than everyone else. 
1. Amps have too much gain. My m³ that I made has 11 gain; of course I can change it but for future upgrades or projects, the gain will usually be too high. I don't care how powerful your amp is to drive my cans at 9 o'clock. That's way too high and not a real show of power (hai gaiz, my amp has an 11 gain p3norz).
2. Resell value. Obvious reasons.
3. I'm not immune to auto suggestion, but I can admit it in myself and deal with it appropriately. No matter how much I reason to myself that the 250 sounds the same as the 600, I would still feel 'incomplete'. That's your fault.
4. It's cool when friends come over.
'oh nice headphone, can I try it on my ipod?'
'nah mate, it's a beast; 600 ohms. Only an amp made from my sweat and blood can drive it'
5. It's only a bit more expensive. $40 more and you've got a headphone that suits my needs perfectly, as well as loses 10-15% value compared to 15-20% of the 250.

 

[hudamanium]

Quote:

Unless someone owns both and has a way to test both at the same time, on the same gear, matching volume, then people on both sides of the debate sound ignorant.

They have been tested... Results show little to no difference. Either its in peoples setup (amps, gains etc) or its just in their heads! 
 
Doesn't really matter which one, the point was that both headphones are the same, but it definitely is possible they sound different with different setups. 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

They have been tested... Results show little to no difference. Either its in peoples setup (amps, gains etc) or its just in their heads! 
 
Doesn't really matter which one, the point was that both headphones are the same, but it definitely is possible they sound different with different setups. 

Results show differences in the treble...which for me were a fatal flaw for the 250ohm version...too hot/sizzly treble that is more subdued with the 600 ohm version. The bass on the 600s also seemed a little more impactful too when I owned both. This increased treble in turn made the mids seem a bit further back in the spectrum.
 
They have different drivers (leeperry actually removed both and weighed them...with the 600 ohm drivers weighing less; by a good margin), so I would not be surprised that they do not sound the same in theory....not to mention my own experiences.
 
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=2751&graphID[]=963
 
For the small difference in price $20-$40, it is well worth this difference to pick up the 600s.
 
Again, for their flagship T1s, there is a reason that beyerdynamic picked a 600 ohm driver.