[james444]

Quote:

The timbre isn't bad at all in the XBA, it's just that there's a spike somewhere that affects the hi-hat, and a much smaller one that affects cymbals. I was about to PM you that they sound great with orchestral pieces. I have copies of Mahler's 9th symphony, Symphonie Fantastique, and Carmina Burana. The XBA is great on all three, and the treble has a slightly brassy quality to it that makes it sound very nice with trumpets and horns.

 
What affects hi-hat and cymbals will very likely affect high piano notes too. A brassy quality that sounds nice with trumpets and horns, ever so often adds a harpsichord-like metallic coloring to piano timbre. I've heard this with many BAs and it's definitely something I'd call bad timbre. Not saying the XBA-3 do it (cause I haven't heard them), but from your and other head-fier's description it seems very likely, imo.
 
Wow, just realized you already sold them, now that was fast!

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

 
What affects hi-hat and cymbals will very likely affect high piano notes too. A brassy quality that sounds nice with trumpets and horns, ever so often adds a harpsichord-like metallic coloring to piano timbre. I've heard this with many BAs and it's definitely something I'd call bad timbre. Not saying the XBA-3 do it (cause I haven't heard them), but from your and other head-fier's description it seems very likely, imo.
 
Wow, just realized you already sold them, now that was fast!

 
Hmm. If that's true, then I didn't really notice it. Maybe I didn't listen to any tracks where it would have shown up.
 
Yeah, I sold them. It's a vicious circle 

 

[gnarlsagan]

What the ety loses in sound stage it makes up for in tonality and timbre accuracy. Is there anything even close to as accurate in these two areas (besides the er-6/er4)? If so I haven't heard it although I'm open to the possibility.

I've never found sound stage to be a major factor when considering iems. Wider/taller sound stages inevitably achieve it by coloring the frequency response and negatively affecting timbre and tonality Imo.

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

What the ety loses in sound stage it makes up for in tonality and timbre accuracy. Is there anything even close to as accurate in these two areas (besides the er-6/er4)? If so I haven't heard it although I'm open to the possibility.
I've never found sound stage to be a major factor when considering iems. Wider/taller sound stages inevitably achieve it by coloring the frequency response and negatively affecting timbre and tonality Imo.

 
There's no dispute there. They Ety HF is extremely accurate and true to the true to the recording note-for-note. I'm just starting to see it as more of a tool, and I'm not really enjoying it as much, vs the other two iems. I keep using the word "atmosphere" but that's the only way to describe it.

 

[dweaver]

Ok Eke looking at your pics I realized I had the same comply tips as you so I threw them in the XBA3 and I am staring to come to some interesting conclusions.

The original Sony hybrid tips created an intimate sound with the most bass, warmest mids, and cohesive treble that is slightly brassy but never spiky or sibilant.

The first silicone tip I used made the treble a bit disjointed as it seemed to allow more upper treble but the lower treble never matched that addition creating a linear gap in the sound. The bass was also lessened a bit and the mids became lighter. The tips offered a slightly larger sound stage but due to the gap in the treble the instrument separation was off.

The second tip I used reduced the bass a bit, had mids right between the hybrids and first tip, the treble was between the hybrids and and the first tip. This tip offered the best sound stage and instrument separation.

The comply tip was more like my first wide mouth tip except the foam seemed to suck out some of the upper mids and all the treble. I heard what ou describe as tssssst sound, the first also had this but it was slightly less. I flipped the comply tip over which should eliminate any possibility of the foam affecting the sound and the comply then sounded like the first tip I tried.

So think these need a slightly wider tip hole than the hybrids but not to wide. I believe I have a pair of those Radio Shack tips kicking around, I will see what they do next, hopefully they will be like my 3rd pair of tips sonically but comfortable like the Sony hybrids.

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

 

 
 
Interesting....
 
I was a bit limited in my choice of tips, as my left ear will form a vacuum seal with any non-vented iems. I was so desperate at first that I seriously considered venting (read: poking a hole in) the body of my HF3. Luckily, I found that foamies don't have that suction seal that silicon provides. I chose the comply on the XBA because it's wide bore, and the nature/ oval shape of the tip doesn't obstruct anything from the sound.
 
Let me know what the radio shack tips do.

 

[dweaver]

I have to find them first LOL. But I did find a softer tip that is more comfortable.

If the suction thing is a challenge could you poke a hole in the tip enough to reduce the suction thing? Also the hybrid tips are pretty much the worst for suction especially when removing from the ear.

 

[james444]

Quote:

I've never found sound stage to be a major factor when considering iems. Wider/taller sound stages inevitably achieve it by coloring the frequency response and negatively affecting timbre and tonality Imo.

 
Different strokes for different folks. I've talked to analytical listeners who didn't care in the least for soundstage, even preferred an intimate presentation because the latter makes it easier to pick out details. For others (like me), listening to a live recording is a surrogate for attending a live concert. To these, soundstage is vital to achieve the desired sense of realism. I for one couldn't care less about micro-detail and separation that exceeds the level of a real performance, because it makes music sound artifically dissected and actually lessens my enjoyment. Like I said, different strokes...
 
Last not least, there's much more to soundstage than frequency response. For instance dynamics, driver placement and venting come to mind, which all have an impact on spatial presentation. It's probably a far more complex topic than a lot of other aspects in IEMs.

 

[Inks]

 
Different strokes for different folks. I've talked to analytical listeners who didn't care in the least for soundstage, even preferred an intimate presentation because the latter makes it easier to pick out details. For others (like me), listening to a live recording is a surrogate for attending a live concert. To these, soundstage is vital to achieve the desired sense of realism. I for one couldn't care less about micro-detail and separation that exceeds the level of a real performance, because it makes music sound artifically dissected and actually lessens my enjoyment. Like I said, different strokes...
 
Last not least, there's much more to soundstage than frequency response. For instance dynamics, driver placement and venting come to mind, which all have an impact on spatial presentation. It's probably a far more complex topic than a lot of other aspects in IEMs.

  Details are a result of an even response, when the details themselves are being forwarded as you mention.A transparent IEM gives all the details while keeping the timbre of the recording as close as possible. But yes, some BAs like the B2 just put forth certain treble aspects while giving up a realistic tone, but thats because its not truly flat there, its boosted. A linear transparent IEM like the ER6 gives a very realistic tone to how a recording was done, nothing place forth that shouldnt be. Soundstage width is nice to have, but IME differences among IEMs arent big and they all share an in-the-head feel and Etymotics are just average, not small. 
 
  Soundstage width is affected by extension past 10k, driver/insertion placement and vent placement are all there is to it. Not that complicated imo, but the perception can really be open to interpretation. 
 
BAs are very very picky about insertion and tips unlike dynamics. So I would look into tip synergy for these XBAs. 

 

[james444]

Quote:

Soundstage width is affected by extension past 10k, driver/insertion placement and vent placement are all there is to it. Not that complicated imo, but the perception can really be open to interpretation. 

 
Well, for one thing there are three dimensions to soundstage, not only width. And regarding "all there is to it" and "not that complicated", I respectfully disagree with that matter-of-fact wording. Afaik soundstage cannot be measured, so there's basically nothing tangible besides perception. Which means, at least in my book, that its deterministic factors are far from being fully understood and scientifically proven.
 
(Don't want to turn Eke's thread into a soundstage discussion, but I'm open to continuing our exchange in a different thread or via PM.)

 

[Inks]

well thats all there is to soundstage width. Im sure it can be measured  but there really isnt a need or a want to by researchers. Headphone/IEM soundstage is heavily distorted to begin with, it just cant match how loudspeakers originally presented in the mix, theres no precision of stimuli when compared to loudspeakers, not even close. You can make it wider with more precise imaging, but its still an all in your head feeling, an illusion of the real nature of the live recording. 
 
. Imaging is also to be factored in, in terms of soundstage and thats ruled by transient response, measured aspect though

 

[eke2k6]

Quote:

I have to find them first LOL. But I did find a softer tip that is more comfortable.
If the suction thing is a challenge could you poke a hole in the tip enough to reduce the suction thing? Also the hybrid tips are pretty much the worst for suction especially when removing from the ear.

 
I tried, but I may not have made the holes big enough. It's fine though, foam works pretty well.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

 
Different strokes for different folks. I've talked to analytical listeners who didn't care in the least for soundstage, even preferred an intimate presentation because the latter makes it easier to pick out details. For others (like me), listening to a live recording is a surrogate for attending a live concert. To these, soundstage is vital to achieve the desired sense of realism. I for one couldn't care less about micro-detail and separation that exceeds the level of a real performance, because it makes music sound artifically dissected and actually lessens my enjoyment. Like I said, different strokes...
 
Last not least, there's much more to soundstage than frequency response. For instance dynamics, driver placement and venting come to mind, which all have an impact on spatial presentation. It's probably a far more complex topic than a lot of other aspects in IEMs.

 
I do find the search for the live concert sound to be a noble cause, which is why I made a thread about it here. Listening to a soundboard of a live show is usually much different than listening from the audience, a major difference being an increased bass in the latter. If we are referencing acoustic concerts like orchestras and such that play without the use of amplification, then I must admit I have less experience in these types of live performances. 
 
In the above linked thread, there are a few good examples given as to the what and why of perceived differences between live and recorded sound. One is the Fletcher-Munson effect, which increases perceived bass with higher volume. If one were to listen to etys at a volume such as is heard in a live venue, the bass might be much more comparable.
 
Another limitation in an iem is the ability to create "felt" bass versus "heard" bass. Increasing the bass in an iem is a flawed solution, with the negative effect of masking detail in bass and sub-bass frequencies that would otherwise be present in the live setting. 
 
One more point to consider is how much audio is recorded from a live setting rather than from a studio? Increased bass in studio recordings when one is attempting to recreate sound for live recordings makes little sense if accuracy is our goal.
 
Concerning sound stage; I do notice iems differ in this regard, but the variation is small in my experience. Are there any flat iems with large sound stages? I'd think if sound stage was at all a deciding factor then headphones would be the solution. Iems give up too much in isolation and frequency response to produce any meaningful sound stage increase.

 

[james444]

Quote:

I do find the search for the live concert sound to be a noble cause, which is why I made a thread about it here. Listening to a soundboard of a live show is usually much different than listening from the audience, a major difference being an increased bass in the latter. If we are referencing acoustic concerts like orchestras and such that play without the use of amplification, then I must admit I have less experience in these types of live performances.

 
I'm not searching for a live concert sound in everything, but I like a live recording to feel as realistic as possible in sound and presentation. And yes, I'm mainly talking about classical (orchestra) recordings, I'd say a much higher percentage of classical recordings are live than that of other genres.
 
Quote:

Concerning sound stage; I do notice iems differ in this regard, but the variation is small in my experience. Are there any flat iems with large sound stages? I'd think if sound stage was at all a deciding factor then headphones would be the solution. Iems give up too much in isolation and frequency response to produce any meaningful sound stage increase.

 
Since soundstage is virtually (re)constructed in our brain from cues in the audio, I tend to think that there may well be an individual factor, besides the IEMs themselves, in how we perceive it. Just to give you an example, I have quite some experience with GIS mapping and there's a significant variation in how people reconstruct a virtual 3D image from the information that's there in a map. Granted, part of it is explainable by training and experience, but there's a large individual factor as well. Now, I'm not claiming that the same thing applies to soundstage perception in audio, but I'm not ruling it out either.
 
One last remark, since you mentioned full-sized headphones: in my perception, some IEMs like the IE8, FX700 and EX1000 surpass every closed full-sized headphone I've heard in spaciousness. Go figure...

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

 
Since soundstage is virtually (re)constructed in our brain from cues in the audio, I tend to think that there may well be an individual factor, besides the IEMs themselves, in how we perceive it. Just to give you an example, I have quite some experience with GIS mapping and there's a significant variation in how people reconstruct a virtual 3D image from the information that's there in a map. Granted, part of it is explainable by training and experience, but there's a large individual factor as well. Now, I'm not claiming that the same thing applies to soundstage perception in audio, but I'm not ruling it out either.
 
One last remark, since you mentioned full-sized headphones: in my perception, some IEMs like the IE8, FX700 and EX1000 surpass every closed full-sized headphone I've heard in spaciousness. Go figure...

That's an interesting theory and it makes sense to me that reconstructing 3D sounds could be a widely varying personal phenomenon. 
 
You're right about the FX700 having a very large soundstage comparatively (which I had forgotten about), but it does fall under the realm of enormous bass and very little isolation. From what I've read about the IE8 it also has a massive bass hump. The EX1000 sounds much more flat but again the isolation is quite low. 
 
I agree that those three iems are good examples of a wide soundstage, but I would add that their lack of isolation negates the very benefit they are supposed to provide being iems rather than open headphones; that being the ability to provide high fidelity audio in a noisy environment outside of one's home. I realize some people don't desire isolation for safety or conversational reasons, but imo the music definitely takes a hit.
 
I guess any closed audio system will suffer in the sound staging department, iem or full-size. I wonder if something like the Smyth Realiser would work with iems. A similar DSP might be the best option to gain sound stage while retaining a flat sound sig and good isolation.