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Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by endgame, Sep 16, 2017.


  1. DOP

  2. PCM

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  1. endgame
    Ok everyone. I want to hear what you think sounds better and why. Do you prefer PCM or DOP when you listen to your music? Why? Go!!!!!
  2. Strangelove424
    I have never heard of DOP before, so I voted for PCM.

    Feel free to pummel me with stones.
    Mr Rick and endgame like this.
  3. theveterans
    ^ DOP means DSD over PCM which is essentially DSD vs PCM debate
    endgame likes this.
  4. bigshot
    I want to vote for better music quality.
    reginalb and endgame like this.
    DoP unless lack of disk space
    endgame likes this.
  6. endgame
    Ok do you prefer DSD or PCM? Why?
    DoP vs PCM is quite simple example to use Onkyo hf player app on an Android device to feed a dsd compatible dac via usb. Test track could be any Wav/Flac. Onkyo app has a function called realtime pcm to dsd conversion so it can feeds the dac in both pcm or dsd of a same track.
    The result is up to you.
    Imo, if a track is really in dsd orinal record, there's much more different
  8. theveterans
    My main DAC has no DSD. Only gripe about DSD is you can't force a common computer to use a lot of resources as it will break the stream and cause drop outs
    reginalb likes this.
  9. endgame
    Have you heard DSD? If so, do you like its sound quality better than standard PCM? That's really what I want to know from people.
  10. bigshot
    I did a direct A/B line level matched comparison of a Pentatone DSD recorded SACD that had the exact same mastering on both the DSD and Redbook layers. For the life of me, I couldn't hear any difference. If the mastering is better on one or the other it will sound better. But the format has nothing to do with it.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    pila405 and endgame like this.
  11. gregorio
    In practice there's little/no difference between them. If we're talking about standard 1 bit DSD (as found on SACD), it can't be mixed or mastered natively, so it has to be converted into PCM, mixed and mastered and then converted back into DSD again. So most/virtually all SACDs are effectively PCM anyway (have been created in PCM). If we're talking about wide DSD variants, then the ADCs digitise pretty much the same as PCM ADCs, which for 20+ or so years massively over sample using a handful of bits, the only difference being a decimation section in a PCM ADC after digitisation. 1 bit DSD has an inherent flaw and is technically inferior to PCM, if you could hear a difference, it should therefore be in favour of PCM over DSD, although various DBTs have demonstrated that they cannot be differentiated. Also, we have to be careful here because there are many PCM formats, for example, 8 bit/11.025 is a PCM format and would in most cases be very easy to distinguish from DSD (and indeed other, higher rate PCM formats. such as 16/44 CD). The reason we have to be careful is that it could be used as a dodgy marketing tactic, we've seen this tactic used in standard vs high res, where the example used for standard res is a 128kbps MP3, rather than 16/44.

    Lastly and most importantly, SACDs are typically mastered significantly differently: Knowing that up until recently they can only be played on a relatively expensive HiFi system in a relatively quiet listening environment, it is/has been standard practice to master SACD with a wider dynamic range than the same release on say CD (or the CD layer), making them relatively easy to differentiate. However, if one were to convert that wider dynamic range version into PCM (say 16/44) then they are indistinguishable. So as bigshot has stated, the thing to watch out for is differences in the masters rather than differences in the format (which are inaudible).

    Brooko and endgame like this.
  12. castleofargh Contributor
    same stuff different package. DoP is DSD data in a different box. so yes it's DSD that needs yet another special DAC to play it natively, they sure love our money. also as said above DSD albums are mostly PCM with one or more conversions. useless.
    all I see is marketing trick and eye candy. I imagine we yet again get exclusive masters so if we want one we need to get on board with the format. despicable way to force our hand, it's doesn't just annoy me, I want to punch every guy responsible for deciding to tie a master to only 1 crappy format or resolution.
    LajostheHun and endgame like this.
  13. theveterans
    I have DSDs but I don't have their PCM versions. So I can't compare. Both sound great though
    endgame likes this.
  14. endgame
    Great feedback people! Thank you all so much! I also can't really hear a difference but wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.
  15. castleofargh Contributor
    any highres format has a resolution which should sound exactly the same as any other. thinking that we have some sort of unlimited potential for audible improvement is unreasonable. so getting clear differences between such hgh resolution files would be the troubling situation IMO. for some it validates how one format is clearly superior. but the way I see it, it only proves that at least one listening situation has serious issues(gear, file, settings, or simply placebo from sighted tests).
    endgame likes this.
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