[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

No reason to be condescending, Eddy's clever enough.
It might have passed you right by, but you are in fact talking about two completely different things, both being applicable to the discussion here.
You are talking about a specific testing protocol, often refered to as Null Difference Testing, used in the audio production world, and elsewhere. One famous example is the Carver Challenge, where Bob Carver used null testing to tune his solid state amplifier to sound perceptably identical to an expensive tube amplifier.
On the other hand, what Steve Eddy is talking about is a Null Result, the only result you do not want from a scientific experiment, because it adds no useful data.

 
THANK YOU!
 
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[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Not having bagged a bigfoot is only part of the evidence as to whether such exisits or not.
 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - Carl Sagan
 
Quote:

How do you link your cables to audible differences in sound quality?

 
Simple. I don't.
 
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[Prog Rock Man]

Lol, I might buy one of your cables Steve!
 
That is a pithy response from Carl Sagan, but it is not applicable here as there is evidence to show the abscence of the ability of a cable to make a difference to sound quality.

 

[jackmccabe]

The thing is there is more evidence that suggests there are no audible differences between cables than there is to suggest that bigfoot doesn't exist.
I am still contemplating whether it is an actual upgrade for a listener if they believe there to be a difference but there is actually not.
 
Also if the listener truly believes that cables make an audible improvement so much that they "hear" one, then does it matter.
Personally I like to live in an objective reality, but clearly others would prefer to live in the magical wonderland of subjectivity in which they can ignore science and reality.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Lol, I might buy one of your cables Steve!
 

Great! If you do, let me know and I'll give you our special curmudgeon discount.

 
Quote:

That is a pithy response from Carl Sagan, but it is not applicable here as there is evidence to show the abscence of the ability of a cable to make a difference to sound quality.

 
Sure. But that evidence is NOT just null results from blind listening tests, which is the context of my comment.
 
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[vandaven]

By no means I want to be condescending.
 
Maybe I overlooked a line, but who started talking about a NULL result? 
 
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
It was my fault.
 
I was replying to jackmccabe's post where he said "Could someone please explain to me a reason why a null test would not prove there is no audible difference."
 
In hindsight I see now that he wasn't referring to a null result in a blind listening test.
 

 
Sorry.
 
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[Currawong]

I do have an explanation for why people find a difference. It is based on all of the evidence bearing in mind some of us have one hand tied behind our back with regards to the presentation of all of the evidence. From that I can decide on 'one truth'. I have made a very reasonable and defendable decision, how is that 'not scientific'? Based on the way you phrased the above, can anyone make a decision about anything?
 
Even if you do get more measurements, how do you plan to link that to audibility? Which do you reckon is better, more measurements or more measurements and a link to audiblity?
I am prepared to accept new evidence as it appears, but as it stands with all cables, USB included is that the difference is in the listener and not in the cable.

That depends on your definition of evidence. Mine is that it anything which can be used to prove or disprove something. Evidence to show 'proof' of bigfoots existence can be hoaxed, is part of the evidence that it does not exist.

I think your understanding of how science works, believing that it reveals absolute truths ('one truth' in your words) is grossly distorted. A person "prepared to accept new evidence" in something, doesn't say that they have decided on what is the truth, let alone going about trying to shove their belief (regardless of their being any validity in anything they say) down the throats of everyone in sight without any respect for others.

Since it seems I need to repeat myself to get it into your head, I have trouble believing that, despite, for example, Oyaide's evidence of their USB cables improving the form of the data signal, that it will make any useful improvement when used with a DAC, where it wouldn't be more effective to put the money towards a higher quality USB to S/PDIF interface, if not a better DAC with a better digital implementation and lower distortion instead. However, there isn't enough data out there with which people can make well-informed decisions IMO. If people can hold off on the religious arguments and we get more capable people obtaining good data that can be correlated with people's listening impressions (see Innerfidelity for the kind of thing I'm talking about) then we can provide some kind of benefit to people.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

'One truth' was in quotations because it was actually what you said Currawong!
 
I do believe that science and nature have absolute truths, or as near as makes no difference, otherwise how do make any decisions? I believe that as it stands, the evidence is that cables inherantly make no difference. I will change that position if new evidence comes alone. I did that before and I will do it again.
 
There is no need to be offensive about this, we disagree, you express your views, I express mine.
 
Can you link to Oyaide's evidence re USB, I have searched their site abd cannot find anything? Thanks.

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

'One truth' was in quotations because it was actually what you said Currawong!
 
I do believe that science and nature have absolute truths, or as near as makes no difference, otherwise how do make any decisions? I believe that as it stands, the evidence is that cables inherantly make no difference. I will change that position if new evidence comes alone. I did that before and I will do it again.
 
There is no need to be offensive about this, we disagree, you express your views, I express mine.
 
Can you link to Oyaide's evidence re USB, I have searched their site abd cannot find anything? Thanks.

While there may be "absolute truths" in nature, I doubt we'll ever find them - or at least, I doubt we'll ever find them precisely to the point of them being absolutely, infinitely true.

 

[jackmccabe]

No one has yet to give a valid reason as to why null tests do not prove usb cables do not make a difference.
Yes we have had the explanation that it is only with the dacs used in the test, but I think that's utter rubbish.
I cannot think of a way in which a usb cable would effect multiple dacs differently, it just makes no sense.
 
I haven't found a single piece of evidence that suggests there is a difference, but I there is a lot to suggest there isn't a difference;
so how could you come to the conclusion there is a difference based on any logical or rational though?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Re absolute truths, I go by the legal ideals of beyond all reasonable doubt and balance of probablities. I would happily go to court and evidence beyond all reasonable doubt that cables inherantly make no difference.
 
I also don't buy the idea of USB cables affecting different DACs differently, but will wait testing to make a firm decision on that one.

 

[DaBomb77766]

I still think it would be interesting to see how far you could extend a cable before it starts to give you errors...and even more interesting to see how far you could extend an "audiophile" cable until it gives you errors, though such a test would probably be prohibitively expensive.

 

[jackmccabe]

Quote:

I still think it would be interesting to see how far you could extend a cable before it starts to give you errors...and even more interesting to see how far you could extend an "audiophile" cable until it gives you errors, though such a test would probably be prohibitively expensive.

You could definitely go 5m+, as the spec for usb 2.0 is 5m maximum length.

 

[Currawong]

Do any of you know, even slightly, how a DAC works?