Don't Crucify Me! Gilmore Lite (DT880,..) Sounds Like a Very Fine 'TRANSISTOR' Radio!

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller Sibilance, source being a little bright, or a little bass heavy, or even a little muddied, that could be improved, this is OK with me, and those are exactly the main differences between good and bad sources IMO...just a little bit of this, or a little bit of that.....But this is completelly different, they are stating that the Pioneer and Marantz engineers are so stupid that instead of going forward with the time, now they are going backwards and now they make their sources sound like a transistor radio...don't you think that this a little naive to call it the least.....

I thought the "transistor radio" comment was an exaggeration by the original poster or perhaps a poor characterization of what he was hearing. I agree that it doesn't make sense to say that the sources referenced sound like a transistor radio, but I also find it hard to believe that any source (other than a transistor radio) hooked up to a Gilmore Lite and the DT880's actually sounds like a transistor radio. I also find it hard to believe, not based on personal experience, but what I've read on the forums, that a Gilmore Lite would make a decent source that doesn't sound like a transistor radio itself sound like a transistor radio. Thus, I tried to analogize to something that I thought might be similar to what the listener was actually hearing. Maybe the problem is that various sides of this issue are really exaggerating and engaging in hyperbole, or aren't able to describe accurately what they are hearing.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller Do you really believe that this comparison represents what is happening here?

Actually Sov, I think the original poster was pretty straightforward in his remarks. The user was searching for a SET and bought a Krell. Not the same thing, not the same sound signature, nope, nada, nyet, never. I like Krell but I have friends who absolutely detest them. They reproduce what's fed them as exactly as possible and they will let you know when the source isn't up to the challenge and what exactly is wrong. They'll also let you know when the source is up to the challenge and exactly what it can do. I'm not sure why it offends you so much that the amplifier reproduces what's fed into it as exactly as possible, I thought that was it's purpose!

In that price range I would think you would want a source that is warm and not especially resolving since it's better for it to commit sins of omission rather than commission. While not appropriate for this member since it's a portable player, the Panasonic DVD-LA95 is a case in point. It's quite enjoyable with the Gilmore's even though it leaves out a lot of detail compared to the Meridian's or Benchmark DAC1. It has to make compromises but it does it in such a way that they are hidden and the sound is musical which is what you really need in that price range.

And of course, one more time, the biggest variable is still the headphones, just take a look at the frequency response curves...

 

[walkman666]

As shown below in my system, I listen to the Gilmore Lite with DPS with some higher end gear and absolutely love what I hear. It aint anything resembling a "fine transistor radio" sound to my ears, that's for sure. However, I also find putting describing sonic attributes and qualities in the written and spoken word to be tricky. All in all though, I have air, detail, speed, soundstage, bass, and a lot of audio enjoyment -- I liken much of the sonic attributes of my headphone listening to the headphones (L3000) and the source (Sim Nova), but also feel the Lite lets it all shine through, uncolored.

- walk

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer Actually Sov, I think the original poster was pretty straightforward in his remarks. The user was searching for a SET and bought a Krell. Not the same thing, not the same sound signature, nope, nada, nyet, never. I like Krell but I have friends who absolutely detest them. They reproduce what's fed them as exactly as possible and they will let you know when the source isn't up to the challenge and what exactly is wrong. They'll also let you know when the source is up to the challenge and exactly what it can do. I'm not sure why it offends you so much that the amplifier reproduces what's fed into it as exactly as possible, I thought that was it's purpose! In that price range I would think you would want a source that is warm and not especially resolving since it's better for it to commit sins of omission rather than commission. While not appropriate for this member since it's a portable player, the Panasonic DVD-LA95 is a case in point. It's quite enjoyable with the Gilmore's even though it leaves out a lot of detail compared to the Meridian's or Benchmark DAC1. It has to make compromises but it does it in such a way that they are hidden and the sound is musical which is what you really need in that price range. And of course, one more time, the biggest variable is still the headphones, just take a look at the frequency response curves...

Nope, I'm not offended in any way by the fact that an amp should be really accurate, just that I do not believe that there is any source in earth that could make an amp sound that wrong or bad, something should be wrong there other than the source quality, of course using a decent recording, (and I have heard that statement many times before, even in threads that I have initiated, which indeed pissed me off that day, as later on using other sources, very good BTW, I got the same results so the problems was not the source at all...) and don't forget also that this amp is an "entrance level amp", as it was called on the website, and not an ultra-high end multi thousand dollars one, so why the need of an extremely and very good high-end source then to have fun, if that amp were a unique piece of technology, as other Gilmore designs, well in that case the investment were more justifiable, but for a little amp (or a portable amp) I would not invest that much neither...

OTOH, as I have stated here many times before, that I do not know how people knows how a given recording is supposed to sound like, as there are so many factors involved in a production process, that it is very hard to determine where it is a matter of source, cables, or recording issues...simply as that....

But also as stated in my signature I don't care too much if a given amp is accurate, neutral, if this fact will deprive me of the enjoyment and excitement of the music itself, that in so many cases we loose, due to that annoying insistence of being considered purists and audiophiles...not anymore, sorry...as a very wise said, "What sounds good, is good" and period, the opposite is also valid but just IMO, what does not, it is not, K.I.S.S. principle....

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller Nope, I'm not offended in any way by the fact that an amp should be really accurate, just that I do not believe that there is any source in earth that could make an amp sound that wrong or bad,

Here is what I think the root of your problem is Sov, you somehow seem to have a mental block here which causes you to keep blaming the amp. Your statement should be:

Nope, I'm not offended in any way by the fact that an amp should be really accurate, just that I do not believe that there is any source in earth that could make a system sound that wrong or bad.

Which really points out the critical flaw in your thinking to me... You keep coming back to the amp when the source and headphones both make a larger contribution to the final sound...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer Here is what I think the root of your problem is Sov, you somehow seem to have a mental block here which causes you to keep blaming the amp. Your statement should be: Nope, I'm not offended in any way by the fact that an amp should be really accurate, just that I do not believe that there is any source in earth that could make a system sound that wrong or bad. Which really points out the critical flaw in your thinking to me... You keep coming back to the amp when the source and headphones both make a larger contribution to the final sound...

Mental block??? No please, do not misunderstood me, I have not blamed this particular amp for the sound he is getting, it was just a general comment about what I have heard here many times, I now that the first thing people tend to blame is the source, but I don't know for sure, what is causing this sound that he is getting. But I can tell you that after having owned one of these sources, and listened that same headphone a few times, in different setups, using other amps and sources, I have never heard that horrible sound he is describing, you can call it a mental block, if you like, but it is true that my statement will sound "more acceptable" using the words "any system" instead of "any amp" for you guys that way...So you got a point there, sorry my bad...I should be more careful while writting from now on...

All I could say to end this endless discussion, is that I used to own one of the sources, and I know what the headphone in question is able to do, and I do not believe that is the source, neither the headphone, none of the two sounds like what he is describing...

But for sure there should be something else, and I'm not saying neither that is the amp, as there seems to be a lot of happy users of Gilmore Lite amps here, but maybe using different headphone, and sources and cables, and blah blah blah....We could say then that it could be a matter of the synergy between them, and I will agree more, then...but please do not blame the source anymore, I have used one of these sources, with other amps, using that same headphone, and it could sound decent to call it the least...

 

[radrd]

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[HypnoLobster]

Sorry about the unfaithful girlfriend there, Adam..

 

[markot86]

By the way adam, I actually had an x-fi ---> gilmore lite ---> DT880 combo going at one point in time and I'm slightly puzzled with your findings. The gilmore lite in the chain added a certain warmth to the DT880's that I found quite enjoyable. Certainly it wasn't the kind of warmth that I got with the micro amp, but it was quite nice nonetheless. My biggest beef with the DT880's was however that i was looking for a way to make them warmer, and really, this was only done at the expense of detail at the 300 dollar price range IMO. You might actually want to try the HD650... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the glite should you decide to keep it =D

 

[Michael Crespo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkman666 As shown below in my system, I listen to the Gilmore Lite with DPS with some higher end gear and absolutely love what I hear. It aint anything resembling a "fine transistor radio" sound to my ears, that's for sure. However, I also find putting describing sonic attributes and qualities in the written and spoken word to be tricky. All in all though, I have air, detail, speed, soundstage, bass, and a lot of audio enjoyment -- I liken much of the sonic attributes of my headphone listening to the headphones (L3000) and the source (Sim Nova), but also feel the Lite lets it all shine through, uncolored. - walk

Leave it to another crazy NY'er to make perfect sense to me! We may be brusque and jerky, but I think NY'ers are logical. Here is a perfect case in point of excellent input (Sim CD player)-> good, neutral thruput (GL)-->good output L3000. Now if walkman said the Gilmore sounded like a transistor radio, given his excellent system, I'd take notice. While many have mentioned the virtues of Adam's Marantz, I say it's an OK source at best. I had a Marantz CD67 MK II many years ago, which is higher than what Adam has, and it was OK, but bettered significantly by my next source, a California Audio Labs CL-15. Anyway, why people think that a DVD player or very mid-level CD player is good enough, doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying a KSC 75 is good enough, when things like an AKG K1000 or a Senn Orpheus exist out there.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller All I could say to end this endless discussion, is that I used to own one of the sources, and I know what the headphone in question is able to do, and I do not believe that is the source, neither the headphone, none of the two sounds like what he is describing...

Hey Sov, I can think of a lot more to say but let's pick it up in person at the Nationals. We can argue for hours!

I really regretted not getting a chance to meet you when I was in NY and attending the meets, you were definitely one of the folks I wanted to meet and didn't!

 

[walkman666]

I am honoured Michael Crespo!

To me, this thread just seems whack: I think all in all the Lite is a pretty neutral and transparent amp.

Next part, and I don't think this is total opinion, but to some degree it is I guess, but I think the source and the headphones (or speakers) have to make more of an impact on the sound/flavor. If the audio user does not like a particular sonic flavor, I'd shurely change the source and/or headphones before mucking around with the amp (which is the exalted gpalmer's point, I believe). The Lite is least to fault for the individual's conclusions, yet the thread does kinda point the finger at the amp.

My case is a good example of almost the opposite: the Lite is relatively the least expensive component in my chain, and yet I am most pleased. I'd expect some sonic improvement from an amp upgrade, but I'm (currently) not compelled. And my sound is like fine, exciting music. I rocked out to Jane's Addiction and mellowed out to Steely Dan, and had no complaints with either one. A lot more $ was involved in my end, but that's me, and not the fault of the Lite.

- walk

 

[markot86]

Reading the original post got me to thinking again; do you even know what a transistor radio sounds like adam? I don't want to be mean, but it's quite a derogatory term for anything even remotely hifi.

 

[Michael Crespo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkman666 I am honoured Michael Crespo! To me, this thread just seems whack: I think all in all the Lite is a pretty neutral and transparent amp. Next part, and I don't think this is total opinion, but to some degree it is I guess, but I think the source and the headphones (or speakers) have to make more of an impact on the sound/flavor. If the audio user does not like a particular sonic flavor, I'd shurely change the source and/or headphones before mucking around with the amp (which is the exalted gpalmer's point, I believe). The Lite is least to fault for the individual's conclusions, yet the thread does kinda point the finger at the amp. My case is a good example of almost the opposite: the Lite is relatively the least expensive component in my chain, and yet I am most pleased. I'd expect some sonic improvement from an amp upgrade, but I'm (currently) not compelled. And my sound is like fine, exciting music. I rocked out to Jane's Addiction and mellowed out to Steely Dan, and had no complaints with either one. A lot more $ was involved in my end, but that's me, and not the fault of the Lite. - walk

Walkman,

Agreed on all points. If Adam wants to be cheap and have a warmer sound, I guess I'd switch from Beyers to Senn's. I've never even heard the Gilmore lite, but I doubt it is causing the problem he mentions. I use an amp that many consider OK here and it sounds fabulous given my excellent sources, especially with my turntable. I've tried other, more expensive amps, but none aside from a Naim headline presented the music like I want to hear it. I'm a flat earther, so I like a decidedly British (i.e., PRAT) sound. Anyway, yes, this thread is whack, but it points to a problem I have with head-fi in general- reviews that generalize/disparage a product when the problem may lie elsewhere in the chain. Again, if someone with a high end system makes the comment, then it has more credibility IMO. If a user makes a disparaging comment when they are rocking cans from a computer soundcard into manufacturer X's amp, then I'll pay less attention.

Michael

BTW, Totem makes great loudspeakers. The hawk is a stand out at it's price point IMO. Good choice!

 

[walkman666]

Cheers Michael. I see from your sig, you are flat earther (Naim, Neat). My gear is prolly mid-way in that hi-fi/flat earth spectrum, as everything I have, including the new Hawks are fast with quick transients, punchy & lively (I listen to a lot of rock). I love these new Totem Hawks. And they are so small -- amazing sound. Great compliments with the Sim stuff.

The Lite is a very clear, fast, neutral sound, that does great with my rock music through my wonderful L3000s. I got the DPS as my modest upgrade, but for now, feel that a $500 headphone amp is more than sufficient for my sonic needs. I wonder if the GS-1 will come a calling...we'll see, but I do like Justin's HeadAmp products mucho. So well built, great service, and sound sig that I prefer.

- walk