Does which DAC you have really matter?
Nov 20, 2011 at 5:11 AM Post #91 of 125
Internal equipment usually costs the same between a $1000 DAC and $300 DAC. Higher the ladder, they add VU meters/display/better and nicer case etc. and jack up the prices, but these are not so expensive upgrades. You're paying for knowledge, everything depends on the schematic, it's very common in DIY where you build something for less money and it sounds better.  
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 6:37 AM Post #92 of 125
 
 How about just dealing with the more pragmatic realities of an internal soundcard versus an external DAC.
 
 It may sound strange but I for one had to downsize from a full sized PC to a laptop recently after a move, and
 coupled with my curiosity set me on the road to discovering what all the fuss was about with entry level and
 middle of range priced DAC's. 
 
 Have to say that having owned an ASUS Essence STX and Auzentech Bravura in the past (stock, did not roll op-amps)
 most sub $500AUD Dac's out here have their work cut out for them ~ the sound cards are difficult to top. I can say this
 for the Cambridge DAC Magic and the Arcam rDAC (the latter gets very close to the soundcards in my opinion)
 
 My opinion was only made up somewhat recently after using an Audiophilleo 2 USB to SPDIF converter on my
 Rega DAC ~ personally I feel this is superior to any of my two previous cards, they can stay in their boxes for
 now ~ how much did it cost to get here between those two components?
 
 Don't ask...
 
 That's my two cents on the 'bang for your DAC buck' question,
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 7:20 AM Post #93 of 125
Another consideration which shouldn't be neglected is the significant amount of software development that go into implementations like Berkeley Audio's work (former Pacific Microsonics team).  Given that experienced software and hardware design engineers can easily command a $50-100/hr salary, when you trace that several thousand MSRP all the way from the distributor to manufacturing to R&D to fully loaded salaries to the IRS, it still amazes me that many of these small companies can stay in business.  Just to throw it out there, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who owns a small business criticize the way audiophile products are priced.
 
I was quite happy with the gamma2 and think it makes great music.  It doesn't hold a candle to my Alpha DAC though, and most people who have heard both in my setup, from casual music listeners to audiophiles, say the difference is not subtle.  Otoh, some people didn't think there was a big difference.  I've also heard the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC and it's a great device, too.  Near the top of my 'I really want to hear this' list is the MSB DAC IV, purely based on reading the technology and R&D that went into the DAC III and DAC IV.
 
I am not sure what this attitude about people needing to be rescued from overpriced gear is coming from.  If I buy a lemon, it'll go up on Audiogon, and I'll take a haircut on the loss.  If I'm buying something for friends or family, I'll stick to something cheaper, as it's similar to the analogy that you don't waste Grey Goose at a party.  If it's for myself and my late-night listening rig, then this is what makes me happy, and I've gotten a lot of awed responses at my setup.
 
Just out of curiosity, how many people here who are criticizing high-priced DACs have actually heard an Alpha DAC, DAC202, dCS, MSB, Reimyo, or similar caliber gear through a quality low jitter converter (Alpha USB, Audiophilleo, Diverter, WaveLink, etc.)?  I'm sympathetic in that I was just as skeptical until I bought and lived with the Alpha DAC for awhile, and now my friends and I are convinced.
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 8:26 AM Post #94 of 125
I've deleted a dozen or so recent posts.
 
First and last warning: While it is fine to debate the merits of your beliefs (as that is what they are, whether you like it or not) it is NEVER ok to make personal attacks, veiled or otherwise.
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 8:36 AM Post #95 of 125
Elysian said:


Just out of curiosity, how many people here who are criticizing high-priced DACs have actually heard an Alpha DAC, DAC202, dCS, MSB, Reimyo, or similar caliber gear through a quality low jitter converter (Alpha USB, Audiophilleo, Diverter, WaveLink, etc.)?  I'm sympathetic in that I was just as skeptical until I bought and lived with the Alpha DAC for awhile, and now my friends and I are convinced.


Zero, they just use circular logic and collective galvanization in order to hypnotize themselves into believing that their stellar jitter DAC's using crappy $0.5 dual opamps in their output stages and stellar ripple PSU's sound as good as the big boys
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Elysian said:


I am not sure what this attitude about people needing to be rescued from overpriced gear is coming from.

 
I guess it goes w/ the collective hypnotizing, the same way many religions consider non-believers as evil ppl that need to be converted.
 
Uncle Erik said:


So if I charged someone $400 an hour to build a Bottlehead Crack it would sound better than someone who charges $40 an hour.
Even better, maybe I could get a job in accounting at an audio manufacturer. Rearranging the books to reflect higher costs would, in effect, improve the sound quality of their entire product line!


Well, quality costs. You're a smart guy, you would only be willing to pay a guy 10X time for the same job if you knew that it'd be far better done. This really has nothing to do w/ my original point that better components cost more, hence the price increase for high quality gear. You can get a lot of dubious gear for very cheap, I'm sure you're not buying those...are you?
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 11:11 AM Post #96 of 125
Good grief leeperry, do you ever stop?
 
Where is the evidence for anything you have said?  Give one friggin' shred of evidence that isn't "I and X heard it."
 
Of course, such evidence doesn't exist, which clearly also doesn't effect the fact that you are so obviously right that everyone else is wrong. In fact, your "argument" (in the loosest sense of the word) accomplishes something quite incredible in that I can't narrow down which particular logical fallacy you are tripping over at any given moment.
 
Bottom line is, your argument is essentially an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Until you or someone else can present evidence for it (and hence make it potentially falsifiable and thus move it into the realms of making sense) your position is provably irrational.
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 11:29 AM Post #97 of 125
 
Originally Posted by Willakan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
you are so obviously right that everyone else is wrong.

 
Who's "everyone"? It reminds me of that story w/ a guy standing on top of one of the walls of the mental institution where he was staying, asking everyone passing by "darn, are you that many in there?".
 
Originally Posted by Willakan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
your position is provably irrational.

 
So what you've learned through extensive real world experiments is that RMAA is the be-all/end-all of analog audio? Please enlighten us about what audio equipment you've heard, and how you came to the conclusion that everything pricey is snake oil. But tbh I'm not that interested
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Nov 20, 2011 at 12:07 PM Post #98 of 125


Quote:
 
 
Who's "everyone"? It reminds me of that story w/ a guy standing on top of one of the walls of the mental institution where he was staying, asking everyone passing by "darn, are you that many in there?".
 
 
So what you've learned through extensive real world experiments is that RMAA is the be-all/end-all of analog audio? Please enlighten us about what audio equipment you've heard, and how you came to the conclusion that everything pricey is snake oil. But tbh I'm not that interested
harley_quinn.gif



Leeperry - put your money where your mouth is and submit to a DBT. Of course, you're not interested in evidence for your absurd claims.


Quote:
Good grief leeperry, do you ever stop?
 
Where is the evidence for anything you have said?  Give one friggin' shred of evidence that isn't "I and X heard it."
 
Of course, such evidence doesn't exist, which clearly also doesn't effect the fact that you are so obviously right that everyone else is wrong. In fact, your "argument" (in the loosest sense of the word) accomplishes something quite incredible in that I can't narrow down which particular logical fallacy you are tripping over at any given moment.
 
Bottom line is, your argument is essentially an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Until you or someone else can present evidence for it (and hence make it potentially falsifiable and thus move it into the realms of making sense) your position is provably irrational.


 
To me it just sounds like he's delusionally expressing an extreme form of buyer's remorse, to the point where he's had to 'isolate his brain'. 
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 1:46 PM Post #99 of 125

Quote:
So what you've learned through extensive real world experiments is that RMAA is the be-all/end-all of analog audio? Please enlighten us about what audio equipment you've heard, and how you came to the conclusion that everything pricey is snake oil. But tbh I'm not that interested 
harley_quinn.gif
 
I think I've got it: combination of straw man and ad hominem? We've got a nice bit of misdirection going on too and some first-class selective quoting.
 
As to the "everybody" comment, perhaps I should rephrase it to "everybody who has the audacity to disagree with you on things about which you are, by the logical standards of the overwhelming majority of people, provably wrong."
 
 
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 3:20 PM Post #100 of 125
 
Originally Posted by Willakan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
ad hominem?


I'm sorry for you if you feel threatened by the request of credentials when trying to prove to newbie fellow men on an audiophile forum that everything >$100 is snake oil.
 
first-class


Oh yes, I like it first class. Coach clearly doesn't make it for me.
 
As to the "everybody" comment, perhaps I should rephrase it to "everybody who has the audacity to disagree with you on things about which you are, by the logical standards of the overwhelming majority of people, provably wrong."


You've recently had a DAC builder telling you the exact opposite of what your lack of experience is forcing you to believe, I presume that he's not "everyone" either? Do you realize that what you're saying doesn't hold any water whatsoever? It would be like a colorblind guy whining about pastel colors all looking the same to him on a forum about Color Management.
 
I'm now unsubscribing from this failtastic thread, but for a flat fee I would be willing to help you further...so don't give up just yet, the roads to audiophilia are indeed narrow my good man.
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM Post #101 of 125
Quote:
 

I'm sorry for you if you feel threatened by the request of credentials when trying to prove to newbie fellow men on an audiophile forum that everything >$100 is snake oil.
 

Oh yes, I like it first class. Coach clearly doesn't make it for me.
 

You've recently had a DAC builder telling you the exact opposite of what your lack of experience is forcing you to believe, I presume that he's not "everyone" either? Do you realize that what you're saying doesn't hold any water whatsoever? It would be like a colorblind guy whining about pastel colors all looking the same to him on a forum about Color Management.
 
I'm now unsubscribing from this failtastic thread, but for a flat fee I would be willing to help you further...so don't give up just yet, the roads to audiophilia are indeed narrow my good man.
 
 
 
Yes, everything over $100 is snake oil. That is exactly what I said and clearly not a straw man you just made up.As to the "DAC builder says otherwise" I believe that breaks the condition I gave for you to present evidence of a form other than "X or Y heard it," although you did admirably well at disguising what is effectively exactly that. Oh wait, another go at the ad hominem - a subtle (by your standards, admittedly) implication that my ears are somehow broken and citing "experience" as something which apparently grants you immunity from bias (Yes, I know that is not exactly what you said. It is called implication. You did it earlier by implying I'm a deaf idiot. Just covering my bases here, lest you return and accuse me of making up stuff you said.) 
 
Anyhow, the argument thus far: A fallacious appeal to authority, a straw man and an ad hominem. You have surpassed yourself.
Come back when you have learnt to separate what you hear whilst aahing pretentiously over some fully-discrete monstrosity over what you hear when blindfolded.
 
 

 
 
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 4:29 PM Post #102 of 125
 
 Perhaps another suggestion for the sake of moderation here,
 
 What about the recent introduction of excellent 'bang for your audio dollar' goods from the likes of Audio GD and others.
 
 If I was to start again with what I know now ~ desktop or laptop ~ and for more or less the same money, I'd choose
 an Audio GD NFB5 Dac and Amp over a top soundcard offering from ASUS or Auzentech and a support amp
 from Fiio. The dollar spend is pretty much the same.
 
 Audio GD NFB-5 - $350-ish AUD depending on how hard you shop
 
 ASUS Essence STX + Fiio E9 - $180AUD + $135AUD so $310AUD approximately
 
 The NFB5 is fairly modular too so easy upgrades are there to improve performance ~ the amp section blows away
 the cards that's for sure :-
 
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB5/NFB5EN.htm
 
 [size=medium][/size]
 
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 4:51 PM Post #103 of 125
With regards to any field, assuming we even know the right things to measure, measurement and data collection is only the first part of the battle.  The significant challenge comes in correctly analyzing and interpreting that data, and I'm sure folks like Dan Lavry, Daniel Weiss, and Michael Ritter would be very interested in any new and well-throughout insights into measurements and interpretation, particularly with how renowned academic departments like Northwestern's Interactive Audio Lab and Stanford's Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics are still at an early understanding of audio reproduction and how the human body processes that input (I say early because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be having these discussions).
 
If you talk to any programmer who studied at a top program, they will tell you immediately how enormously challenging digital audio is due to how you need a very strong background in multiple subjects: mathematics, statistics, physics, computer science, electrical engineering, etc.  That doesn't even touch on biology, psychoacoustics, and other fields that cover the human side of things.  Conceptually, digital audio seems really simple.  It's a bunch of 0s and 1s on the HDD that goes through some processing and exits as a physical waveform.  Where things get difficult is how those 0s and 1s are processed, all of the competing and interfering influences inherent to digital processing, clocking, etc.  It's enormously challenging and to be frank, even with the resurgence in audio due to the iPod, your average person does not value music to the degree most of us do, which is why the field progresses much slower than graphics processing, where it's easy and immediately gratifying to experience the difference between different generations of technology.  There's a lot of research on how humans tend towards visual stimulation.
 
I think many of the comments here do a disservice to the challenge intrinsic to digital audio.  Granted, there is a lot of snake oil and misinformation out there, but with some research and diligence, it's pretty easy to figure who understands the application, who understands theory, and whose a huckster.
 
Thanks for people like Beezar, AMB, and Twisted Pear, it's never been cheaper to get a high-quality discrete D/A device.  But as great as they are, the <$1k devices I've heard lack something when it comes to the well-engineered high-end devices.  It's pretty fascinating reading about the work that goes into Berkeley Audio, MSB, and Weiss' work, and it's just as interesting reading the approach towards more traditional, ladder DACs like the TOTAL DAC (which has been evaluated by a professor of physics and electronics, I think from Université de Paris?).  It's cheaper than ever to get good analog output from a digital signal nowadays, but there still remains significant improvements and innovations in the field, with some very intelligent and experienced people working on these problems.  If you speak with them and think they're chasing a flying spaghetti monster, I'd be interested to hear why.
 
Honestly, I'm not sure why some people are so up in arms about this.  Some people like and feel that they get a lot of value out of high end D/As.  Some people spend money on wine, others on travel, and others on dating.  As long as no one is getting hurt, why is this such a big issue?  At least with audio, the field is much more scientifically grounded than many other recreational areas.  Do we need to quantify and measure a good steak or a cute girl/guy before we can enjoy the experience, too?
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Nov 20, 2011 at 5:40 PM Post #104 of 125
Quote:
Honestly, I'm not sure why some people are so up in arms about this.  Some people like and feel that they get a lot of value out of high end D/As.  Some people spend money on wine, others on travel, and others on dating.  As long as no one is getting hurt, why is this such a big issue?  At least with audio, the field is much more scientifically grounded than many other recreational areas.  Do we need to quantify and measure a good steak or a cute girl/guy before we can enjoy the experience, too?
wink.gif

 
Because audio reproduction is not entirely subjective like your other examples.  It can be objectively measured and studied.  Unfortunately the audio industry, especially the high end side, thrives on pseudo science and subjective nonsense.  I can't think of another hobby that could easily be objective where so many people turn a blind eye to objective facts and rely on subjective nonsense.  People who are into cars quantify the performance of their cars.  They take them to a track, or a drag strip, or a dyno and prove it's faster or has more HP or torque.  If someone sells you an exhaust and promise it will revolutionize your car's performance like night and day and the improvement doesn't show up on a dyno or at the track that company gets badmouthed and people avoid their product.  In photography if someone sells you a lens promising it's the sharpest of it's type and it's not when the MTF charts are made that company gets badmouthed and people avoid their product.  In high end audio the products are objectively tested the differences don't show up (or are so minute they're irrelevant) instead of the company getting badmouthed and people avoiding their product you have people insisting that the differences really are there and those people who can't hear them have a tin ear, crappy gear, can't afford it, etc.
 
Look at all the nonsense products that are sold for cars that supposedly improve fuel economy, magnets, HHO generators, tablets you put in the gas tank, gas additives, all sorts of crap.  None of them work and it's proven every time.  Almost no one takes them seriously.  However, in audio we have equally nonsensical garbage like ceramic cable lifts that keep your speaker cables isolated from the effects of carpet on the signals in the cable, or wooden blocks to put under your gear to improve the sound.  None of these work either, but they are taken seriously by a very vocal minority.  That vocal minority willingly suspend their disbelief and then attempt to push their beliefs onto others.  This causes friction with those people who want to see the objective facts before plunking down their money and battle lines are drawn.
 
Nov 20, 2011 at 6:40 PM Post #105 of 125


Quote:
Honestly, I'm not sure why some people are so up in arms about this.  Some people like and feel that they get a lot of value out of high end D/As.  Some people spend money on wine, others on travel, and others on dating.  As long as no one is getting hurt, why is this such a big issue?  At least with audio, the field is much more scientifically grounded than many other recreational areas.  Do we need to quantify and measure a good steak or a cute girl/guy before we can enjoy the experience, too?
wink.gif



"As long as no one is getting hurt" you say?  To those new, misinformation here may indeed fiscally impact them negatively.  Had I not listened to Head-Fi myself and gone the strict measurement route from the beginning I'd have saved ~$1K.  For a college student, that's a large sum of money that really shouldn't have been wasted due to bad buys at the recommendation of various subjectivists.  Also, we now have a question of what determines "high-end".  Is it empirical performance or what one thinks sounds "high-end"?  One can take an awful TDA chip and slap it in a  fancy box and charge $3K and someone will surely call it "high-end" (it's been done).  An amazing piece of circuitry like the Dac Magic can be shoved in a minimalist package and sold for $350 and be called "entry" level.
 
Do we not see a problem here?  As for the grounded in science comment - that's where the measurements come in.  The problem is we have people advocating disregard for the scientific groundings and underpinnings we know based on their mental state, hearing, and business practices.  That's why I imagine a good many people are "up in arms" about this - to advice against people being inherently wronged for what they believe is a bad reason.
 

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