[theguatemalian]

I'm not very expirienced with DACs and I don't seed talk about synergy and all the other stuff people refer to with AMP, so my questions is does it really matter what DAC you get?
 
 
I'm looking for suggestions for a desktop dac between 200-400 dollars, such as the Bifrost I've been looking at, but seeing as I haven;t seen people being as picky about DACs as they are about AMPs I'm not sure dishing out that much money is really worth it at all?
 
Justifications and other sugestions appreciated! Thanks GUys!

 

[NA Blur]

Some of us believe that the DAC is a very critical component.  Without it you cannot hope to grab those bits and transform them into correct voltages.  I know I can hear the differences between DACs.  Poor DACs sound noisy and muddy while a good DAC will be crisp, clean, and clear.
 
Just take the DAC on a standard PC and then compare that sound to a nice DAC like the CENtrance DACport.  There really is no comparison between the sound.
 
To quote headroom:
 
"As mentioned above, the source is generally (keep reading!) the most important aspect of an audio system. We build a variety of digital to analog converters (DACs) to further improve your audio source. HeadRoom amps with internal DACs, and our stand-alone DACs, both contain high quality DAC chips in our designs; and, these contemporary high-end digital receivers and DACs are extremely good at reducing or virtually eliminating jitter from the digital bit-stream. Now, here's the exception to our rule about sources being so critical: when constructing a front-end for your stereo system, it is much less important where the digital signal is coming from when a very high-quality DAC is used. We've even found, in fact, that sometimes very expensive CD transports sound only slightly better than the digital output of inexpensive CD players or USB audio outputs from computers when using a good DAC. So, keep that in mind when putting together your rig!"

 

[Edoardo]

 
Yes, 70% of the sound is given by the headphones, but high-quality headphones, well amped, will reveal a crappy source... Or crappy tracks!!! Crap in, crap out. 
 
Especially if you use a computer as source and not a CD player, and especially if you use high-res files, DACs are important.
Proper OS configuration and software for what concerns the computer, jitter reduction stages and sought-after analog output stages for what concerns the DAC are needed for a loyal playback.
 
By the way, nowadays "entry level" priced DAC give objectively very good results, since the technology implied in most DACs is extremely similar, at any price range.
 
If you don't need top-notch fully balanced impedance-matched rig, an entry level DAC with a couple of RCA outs could be a definitive choice... Just... OK, headphones make 70% of the system sound, but don't expect expensive headphones to sound faithfully out of your iPod, don't expect your headphone amplifier to make a difference when connected to  the "green socket" of your PC, don't expect an expensive DAC to play any role if you are using an old supermarket PC running Windows Vista SP 2.0 out-of-the-box.
 
I'm not saying I can hear hard-disks (as some audiophiles claim, LOL), but if you're running Windows, hoping your computer is silent, you need to set it to prioritize the audio feed and bypass the really crappy default software mixer.  
 
(To my ears, computer configuration and DAC's connection to it make more difference than the DAC itself, and from some amps to others... It's useless to run, convert, amp, whatever, a dirty or constantly interrupted signal!)

 
I'm not saying that there is any "better" OS to playback audio, but Windows needs a little configuration to get a good result. (actually it's about installing a couple of drivers)
 
 
The best of the best (but I'm not saying anybody needs it) is to feed the DAC through a internal sound card, to avoid all the USB flaws. 
The best of the best of the best, to do it from another (small and cheap, though) dedicated computer.
And there are people around which are so picky on that you'd not imagine!
 
 
Could you give us some more details about the rest of your system, or about the rest of the budget?

 

[theguatemalian]

Wow ok, I had everything backwards then...definitely going to get myself a good DAC.
 
I have a Fiio E10. A Schiit Lyr on the way since it was recommended for orthos I'm into modding the FOstexes and plan on getting into the more expensive stuff eventually.  I hadn't figured I really needed a DAC, now I feel lIke I do.
 

 

[Head Injury]

Don't be swayed by just two people. DACs are really quite easy to get right. Many entry-level DACs perform just as well to audible standards as more expensive ones. There's really no proof otherwise, just biased opinion and subjective impressions.
 
Think of it like this. A DAC has one job. It takes ones and zeros, and it converts it to a sine wave. It basically plays a game of Connect the Dots, only all the dots are spaced at specific intervals and it just draws one big curve. Not all that hard to do, and the only things that will change that wave are things like distortion, noise, and jitter. Those are the only things that matter. One DAC won't decide to draw a big squiggly line where it's not supposed to unless it's a faulty DAC. Electricity is not magic, and neither is digital audio.
 
An amp, on the other hand, has a lot more going on. It interacts directly with the headphones, so its performance will be greatly affected by the headphone's impedance and impedance curve, and it will in turn greatly affect the sound of the headphones if it's not designed properly for that impedance. DACs don't have to worry about high voltages, amps do. DACs don't have to worry about low impedance loads and high current, amps do. It's a lot harder to find a competent amp than it is a competent DAC.
 
Your E10 should be fine for now. Honestly, if you're looking for a new DAC anyway, I'd ditch the Lyr (you seriously need that for Fostex orthos, which are more efficient than most dynamic drivers?) and get a better solid state amp/DAC like the Yulong D100 or CEntrance DACport (DACport less recommended, it has high output impedance).

 

[rawrster]

I need more experience with higher end dacs but from what I've heard so far dacs have the fastest diminishing gains of headphones, amps and dacs imo. You can get a good quality dac and be happy with that. Although it also depends on your headphones. I would not buy a 1k dac when you have 60 dollar headphones but something more in line with your other gear. I have a Keces DA151 dac that sounds excellent even though my D100 dac is better when the rest of the chain is the same.

 

[Mr.Sneis]

IMO the DAC is up there in importance with the headphones.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

Don't be swayed by just two people. DACs are really quite easy to get right. Many entry-level DACs perform just as well to audible standards as more expensive ones. There's really no proof otherwise, just biased opinion and subjective impressions.
 

Well, I don't think I swayed the OP in any way.
 
I agree with you here, entry level DACs can do most of the job. But mind that it is not just about a chip. High quality analog stages and Power Stages of course cost and do make a difference.
I'm not saying that this difference is HUUUUGE but from 50 to 1000 there is a real difference. From 1000 onwards, I don't know, and I don't think so.
 
Stereo professional grade DACs all range from 700 to 1200 €, and can all be a definitive choice.
I'm speaking about what they actually use in recording studios... Lake People, Lavry, RME, MyTek...
 
There are tens of "Audiophile" DACs that cost 5 or 10 times more. Now... THAT is subjective, and maybe idiot.
But I can't believe hundreds of recording engineers to be nuts.
 

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

Wow ok, I had everything backwards then...definitely going to get myself a good DAC.
 
I have a Fiio E10. A Schiit Lyr on the way since it was recommended for orthos I'm into modding the FOstexes and plan on getting into the more expensive stuff eventually.  I hadn't figured I really needed a DAC, now I feel lIke I do.
 

Well, first give the three a try, at least!!! 
 
I must admit I don't know the Fiio you own...

 

[JRG1990]

It's 2011 even the cheapest dac built from the cheapest parts will perform well if it's well designed with no real audiable difference to one costing 10 times as much.

 

[Adda]

Quote:

But mind that it is not just about a chip. High quality analog stages and Power Stages of course cost and do make a difference.

x2 The output stages of a DAC is basically a fixed gain preamplifier, but since the signal it amplifies is not fixed, it has to deal with varying signal strengths just like a regular preamp, just not to the same degree.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Well, I don't think I swayed the OP in any way.
 
I agree with you here, entry level DACs can do most of the job. But mind that it is not just about a chip. High quality analog stages and Power Stages of course cost and do make a difference.
I'm not saying that this difference is HUUUUGE but from 50 to 1000 there is a real difference. From 1000 onwards, I don't know, and I don't think so.
 
Stereo professional grade DACs all range from 700 to 1200 €, and can all be a definitive choice.
I'm speaking about what they actually use in recording studios... Lake People, Lavry, RME, MyTek...
 
There are tens of "Audiophile" DACs that cost 5 or 10 times more. Now... THAT is subjective, and maybe idiot.
But I can't believe hundreds of recording engineers to be nuts.
 

 
Of course it does. That's why DACs are measured as a whole unit, not just by their chip. The measurements still rule supreme, not the price tag.
 
Professional grade equipment is designed to be beyond inaudible, to account for worse case situations. The Yulong D100 I suggested performs as well as these. It's based on Benchmark's design. Personally I would want a DAC that performs that well, even if I can't hear the difference. That's why I have the sound card I have, and not a $100 external DAC. It gets remarkably close to that level of performance for the price, as a DAC. The amp has some flaws, which is why I'll be buying/making a desktop Objective2 in the future.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

 
Of course it does. That's why DACs are measured as a whole unit, not just by their chip. The measurements still rule supreme, not the price tag.
 
Professional grade equipment is designed to be beyond inaudible, to account for worse case situations. 

Well actually pro gear usually has features you don't find in consumer gear, and it is designed to work 24 / 7 for years.
 
Also, pro gear is transparent. consumer gear is very often designed not to be transparent, on purpose
 
Why are you speaking with me as if I minded the brand or the price tag, I dunno
 
The Asus sound card surely has a very sought after DAC stage, I'd love to compare it to a Lavry or a Violectric DAC, one day 

 

[Willakan]

One warning about the Yulong recommendation. Whilst the measurements in the manual appear very good, they are hardly comprehensive: still better than the majority. The real problem is that it has serious reliability issues with chips overheating and shipping to China is quite expensive...

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Why are you speaking with me as if I minded the brand or the price tag, I dunno

Because you keep applying price tags to levels of performance.