[saratoga]

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Even FWs that measure identically flat sound different. Easily done with 2 clips *28 and *31 as well as Rockbox can easily be distinguished in an AB. I think the proper response is 'whatever' from here on out. Skamp is absolutely correct about output power and impedance. Not so much that the simplest measurements tell you everything.

 
Yeah we don't set the DAC quite the same as the sandisk firmware.  The stereo separation is different in rockbox (better actually!), and the pitch is more accurate.  I'm surprised that different sandisk firmwares sound different though.  When I disassembled them it seemed like they changed very little between them.  Actually, it seemed like sandisk was hesitant to change much of anything.  

 

[lee730]

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Why should you do what exactly?
 
 
 
 
 
 
Why does how good my test was even matter?  Like I said above, even if mine is broken too, it doesn't change anything.  
 
 
 

 
 

 
I don't agree with this.  Measuring the highest frequency you can hear isn't easy, but its certainly possible, and many people have done so before.  

Well we agree to disagree and that will never change.

 

[saratoga]

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Well we agree to disagree and that will never change.

 
Sorry, but what are disagreeing with exactly?  

 

[saratoga]

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I agree. I'm a stickler for impedance issues for the most part. As I'm also well aware of output power having a profound effect on Cans and even IEMs depending on the model (I'm talking about you Studio V! . But saying if an item measures ruler flat that it will sound exactly the same as different unit with a similar frequency responses is comical at best. There is so much more to it and it is sad that some can't seem to get past that. But I guess in that we truly love music and we analyze those subtle differences. Then again those subtle differences add up to be a whole lot to us and how we interpret sound.

 
Impedance is probably the most important single measure IMO because its a great proxy measure for overall quality.  Theres no way to cheat it except to spend the time and money needed to come up with a good design.  Pretty much without exception actually, <5 ohm designs are very good quality, while >30 ohm designs are cheaply designed.
 
But of course as you point out its only a proxy measure.  It doesn't directly affect anything.  You can't hear Ohms.  And just because someone comes up with a good design doesn't mean its perfect.  Certainly after impedance I would next look at frequency response.  Frequency errors are a first order effect.  They're by far the easiest thing to hear.  There is basically no other effect that you can hear so small an error in as frequency.  Finally, after that I would look at THD, since it gives you a good idea if there are any (second order) nonlinear problems.  
 
After that you're into much higher order effects.  These become more subtle, and compared to things like mismatched levels are downright difficult to hear.  Not impossible, but not easy.
 
If impedance is low, frequency response is correct, and THD is low, I tend to not really care that much about the remainder.  Anything thats smaller then a db of volume difference isn't worth getting worked up over IMO.   

 

[goodvibes]

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Yeah we don't set the DAC quite the same as the sandisk firmware.  The stereo separation is different in rockbox (better actually!), and the pitch is more accurate.  I'm surprised that different sandisk firmwares sound different though.  When I disassembled them it seemed like they changed very little between them.  Actually, it seemed like sandisk was hesitant to change much of anything.  

I don't get it either as I'm sure they stayed with the same Codecs. Try it sometime. I appreciate the pitch bug fix but I bet that's less audible. Hard to hear a few cents but if your timing something it adds up.
I don't know if it was the later Sansa players or the updates but I though Rockbox got better sounding. Might just be the players because I still am not crazy about it on my fuze v1 but like it on the V2 and clip+ (with dither). Were there any codec changes within the last couple years?

 

[saratoga]

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I don't get it either as I'm sure they stayed with the same Codecs. Try it sometime. I appreciate the pitch bug fix but I bet that's less audible. Hard to hear a few cents but if your timing something it adds up.
I don't know if it was the later Sansa players or the updates but I though Rockbox got better sounding. Might just be the players because I still am not crazy about it on my fuze v1 but like it on the V2 and clip+ (with dither). Were there any codec changes within the last couple years?

 
I put in a fix that increased volume about 2 years back, and the pitch thing went in a little before that.  Could have been something else, I can't remember all the ports so clearly

 

[anetode]

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That's the thing though, there's other ways to approach things, skampie babes take rudeness and blatant attitude to the extreme, why would we want to work with him and learn? If so, he has knowledge I can't take him seriously. Lee and I have spoken via PM about his challenge set infront of us, we both came to the conclusion we won't even try.. skamp should reconsider the way he approaches things. he needs to concentrate on other areas like social behaviour rather than measurements.

 
I agree, gents. If skampie babe only had the refined manner, social graces and logical debate skills of you and lee, his accomplishments in life would be far different.
 
I don't think he's taking the serious business of iPod Classic or Clip+ portable audio sound quality seriously. We should not allow the Head-Fi intelligentsia to impugn our perfect pitch and 20-20 hearing with their "challenges".

 

[goodvibes]

I've have humored challanges in the past and can trust my ears. That said, Skamp does supply some good info. The tech stuff on the clip vs Ipod were going the wrong way before he entered. Subjectiveness just gets under his skin (a bit too much) and to be honest I get it. I may not agree on an absolute level but there are some good imaginations out there as well.
 
Not always but often, the problem with specnocrats is that they will acquire lower level but good measuring kit by these criteria which can also become a self fulfilling prophesy of not hearing file or software differences etc. That is not every case and I"m not saying this about anyone in particular. I've just seen it happen and been able to change some minds by example. When we're speaking of mainstream DAPs, specs like output impedance and power can and probably should become the primary consideration before any other evaluation depending on load.

 

[goodvibes]

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I put in a fix that increased volume about 2 years back, and the pitch thing went in a little before that.  Could have been something else, I can't remember all the ports so clearly

Is was about then that I started using it again. Probably coincidence and synergism with DAPs mentioned. I agree about the 1 db thing but even think more isn't that big a deal if it's a gradual roll at either end of audibilty. It's noticeable bumps and to a slightly lesser extend dips that are more disconcerting. So many DAPs roll a bit at the bottom likely due to smallsih coupling caps but it usually wont kill it for me if it's VG otherwise. Speaking of coupling caps, they're a good example of distortion, frequency and phase between 2 different models being very similar while sounding quite different.

 

[lee730]

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I've have humored challenges in the past and can trust my ears. That said, Skamp does supply some good info. The tech stuff on the clip vs Ipod were going the wrong way before he entered. Subjectiveness just gets under his skin (a bit too much) and to be honest I get it. I may not agree on an absolute level but there are some good imaginations out there as well.
 
Not always but often, the problem with specnocrats is that they will acquire lower level but good measuring kit by these criteria which can also become a self fulfilling prophesy of not hearing file or software differences etc. That is not every case and I"m not saying this about anyone in particular. I've just seen it happen and been able to change some minds by example. When we're speaking of mainstream DAPs, specs like output impedance and power can and probably should become the primary consideration before any other evaluation depending on load.

lol but there is a lot that he'd find ridiculous in your very own beliefs . Such as us hearing differences in sound on the Studio V with BTN button off or on. Or even changing the allocation size on the memory even having an effect on the sound lol. Or us hearing differences between WAV and FLAC on this very player .... Do we really care if he believes us or if he can/can't hear what we hear? I think not ....

 

[skamp]

Well just as you don't take us seriously. We don't take you seriously either. Here's a few tests for you. I'd like to see you do as well .

The difference being that I back up my claims, and you do not. As for the test, I don't think it's very interesting or even relevant, but FWIW, I took a similar test on hydrogenaudio.org a while back, and at normal listening level, I could hear at up to 17-18 kHz. I don't know why you would take any pride in hearing at up to 20kHz or whatever: there's no music to speak of up there, and a mere Clip+ is able to reproduce such frequencies, so that's nothing special.

That's the thing though, there's other ways to approach things, skampie babes take rudeness and blatant attitude to the extreme, why would we want to work with him and learn? If so, he has knowledge I can't take him seriously. Lee and I have spoken via PM about his challenge set infront of us, we both came to the conclusion we won't even try.. skamp should reconsider the way he approaches things. he needs to concentrate on other areas like social behaviour rather than measurements.

You have to realize that guys like you two are legion in these parts, and guys like me have to fight your claims in every thread. You don't think you have an attitude too? You mock anyone who doubts your claims and asks for objective evidence. You systematically dismiss such queries out of hand and camp on your 100% subjective "knowledge" that comes out of thin air.

Sorry, but rejecting my challenge on the grounds that I'm not polite enough, doesn't cut it. It doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make me wrong. Your claims are still just as hollow, and frankly, it's a piss poor excuse. Anyone with a bit of common sense can see through that.

Plus even if we pass his test with flying colors we'll still be met with skepticism that there may have been error in the tests done lmao.

No. I said that I would state which is which in a text file that I would release later, and that I would publish its MD5 sum right away, in order to give you the assurance that I wouldn't tamper with it just to prove my point. You have no grounds to doubt my integrity here, this is just another poor excuse for not putting your money where your mouth is. Who are you trying to fool?

Oh, and please stop LOLing every 5 seconds. It's ridiculous and aggravating. I'm sure it gives you a false sense of superiority, but like the rest, it's just bull.

 

[skamp]

I take skamp seriously.  You should too.  You may not care for his attitude, but hes a very knowledgeable person and it makes no sense to dismiss someone's argument just because you dislike them personally.

Wow, coming from you, that's a hell of a compliment. BTW, I'm not sure Lee and H20Fidelity know who you are and what you do, so that compliment may fall flat, as far as they're concerned. :rolleyes:

I haven't had a good education, and I actually know very little (comparatively, anyway), but at least I'm aware of it and I'm always willing to listen to more knowledgeable people and learn something. Sometimes it's pretty hard for me to understand what people are trying to teach and explain to me, but I try my best, and most of the time, it pays off.

That's obviously not the case of many "audiophiles" here who reject such knowledge like it's an insult to their intelligence or whatever. They don't seem to realize the ridicule in that.

As for my attitude: sure, it would be better if I kept my cool in all circumstances. But seeing so much bullschiit perpetrated everywhere, all the time, with so much zeal, and seeing newbies fall for it, takes a toll on my patience. It's probably not serving my cause, but it doesn't excuse lee and co. from talking crap all day long and systematically refusing to give their claims some substance.

 

[skamp]

Lee and I have spoken via PM about his challenge set infront of us, we both came to the conclusion we won't even try..

Oh. Did you come to the conclusion that your claims wouldn't stand the test, that you couldn't make out a Clip+ or an iPod out of the pool of samples, and that it would certainly be best to reject the challenge and try to save face by blaming my attitude, rather than facing the ridicule of possibly failing miserably and having to admit that you were horribly wrong?

Makes sense! It's a shame though: this is the opportunity to make me eat my hat and permanently shut me up (because unlike you, I'm big enough to admit it when I'm wrong).

Let's be clear: you guys made a very simple claim: the Clip+ and the iPod sound very different. I challenged you to a very simple test: identify them blind among a pool of several samples, or at least rate those samples in order of preference. You guys make it sound so easy, so why not take up on my challenge? A successful outcome would be worth a lot more than anything you or I can say.

 

[skamp]

Not always but often, the problem with specnocrats is that they will acquire lower level but good measuring kit by these criteria which can also become a self fulfilling prophesy of not hearing file or software differences etc.

That's absolutely a fair point. I keep waving the expectation bias flag around, but I could certainly be a victim of it myself, in the opposite direction. The thing is though, I can't prove that I don't hear a difference, there's no valid test for that (that I know of!), and in any case, it wouldn't prove that others can't hear any either. It is those who claim to hear a difference, who can prove it. It might not seem fair, but the burden of proof lies on their shoulders, not mine.

 

[AKG240mkII]

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... so much bullschiit perpetrated everywhere

 
The truth is ill-heard, that's why people who tell it are often accused of having bad social skills  .
(For a die-hard subjectivist 'social skills' means the ability to lie politely while you eat all their bull-schiit .. )