[bigshot]

Digital volume can cause loss of resolution in terms of dynamic range (have you seen the 16-bit vs. 24-bit threads?  I'm talking about losing some of those 16-bits).

Why do DACs have volume controls? That's just asking for trouble. Everything should generate a line level signal. The amp should have the volume pot.

 

[Yoga Flame]

 
Quote:

 Why do DACs have volume controls? That's just asking for trouble. Everything should generate a line level signal. The amp should have the volume pot.

Some DACs process the D-A conversion internally at 24 bits or higher. Digital volume control in those cases should be fine, and avoids the noise from an analog pot.
 
 
Quote:

Why do you assume he has an agenda?  Because he's proven that manufacturers don't always measure their gear or measure it right?
 

I am mostly appreciative of NwAvGuy's contributions. And I think that when someone takes and posts measurements, we should give them the benefit of the doubt. But the manner in which he did his Mini3 measurements did not sit well with me. (At the very least he could have followed all the build instructions properly. And very bad form to leave out components that are not optional, even if he himself does not think it would have made a difference.) Moreover unlike with the NuForce drama, his Mini3 claims are strongly disputed by amb, who also deserves benefit of doubt. I would not consider anything proven in this case until 3rd party measurements show up.
 

 

[Willakan]

I trust NwAvGuy's measurements of the Clip+ for several reasons. Firstly, they were made with a monstrously expensive piece of equipment - it seems unlikely that someone would buy a $10,000 measuring workstation in order to learn how to use it, hence implying he has some background which would assist him in performing such measurements accurately. Additionally, the measurements I refer to read throughout as highly reasonable - about what you would expect, so I assume they are probably correct. 
 
It is of course entirely possible he bought all this equipment and doesn't know how to use it properly, or is in the habit of making up numbers to back up any equipment he likes. However, in the same way as we don't attack people who write highly subjective reviews of equipment with "You didn't hear it! You made this crap up!" it seems rather unfair to do it here, especially since it seems rather unlikely the measurements are inaccurate.
 
Regarding the Mini3, I initially sided heavily with AMB, trusting in his experience, but certain things about those measurements have not been satisfactorily addressed - for example - NwAvGuy points to a particularly nasty type of intermodular distortion that emerges from the 3-channel topology - which is not actually measured by AMB. Regardless of NwAvGuy's rather aggressive approach to his measurements, which didn't exactly help his cause, I would be loath to dismiss them out of hand. Some of AMB's explanations defy sense even to the average layperson - to get advertised power output you need a special version of a 9V battery that is not 9V?
 
Regarding my comment about 32-bit DACs, I don't mean that all DACs sound the same, I merely meant that whilst they will usher in ever-lower distortion numbers, they are simply not going to result in an audible improvement over other decent DAC chips. Again, there is nothing to suggest they would sound different, so why should they? (do they incorporate -10db rolloff at 20khz or something?)

 

[Yoga Flame]

Oops. I forgot the discussion was about the Clip+. Not familiar with that one. My bad.
 
edit: Whoa, stealth edit.  Ok, so Mini3 after all.  I wasn't bothered by the battery issue. I recall the build instructions talking about batteries of various capacities. And whenever there's a battery powered device (laptops, iPods, whatever), I always assume that the specs are for when it is operating at peak capacity. But yes, I agree we should not dismiss everything out of hand. That's why I'm holding out for 3rd party confirmation. But like I said in the "faith" thread, I would side with amb if I was forced to decide based only on my incomplete layman knowledge.
 

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Why do DACs have volume controls? That's just asking for trouble. Everything should generate a line level signal. The amp should have the volume pot.

He was talking about his DAP (not DAC) sounding worse than his PC with DAC.  That's why I brought up the volume controls.
 
@Yogaflame:
 
When I fixed my dummy load and ran RMAA I got results very close to NwAvGuy's, especially regarding crosstalk.  The fact that I checked his math and it's pretty much sound that Ti can't get the level of crosstalk he says he did makes me think something was done wrong with his RMAA testing (when I built my dummy load wrong I got similar numbers to Ti, then I fixed it and got numbers similar to NwAvGuy).  Since my numbers were just slightly worse than his (thanks to an older USB SBL!), I think he's on the right track.  As such I sold my Mini^3 (though there were other design choices I wasn't the fondest of before this, so it was a matter of time anyway).
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of NwAvGuy's attitude or how he handled the Mini^3 fiasco (NuForce deserved a thump on the head) - but if he's right he's right.

@Willakan:
 
A lot of NOS DAC do have varying degrees of roll-off based on their design (and some OS do too).  That's why you have to quantify it.  It's like arguing cables, some of them basically have a crossover network included in them so they obviously change the sound -- most people arguing there's no difference exclude these cables specifically.

 

[upstateguy]

In my opening post I said, "The more I look at it, the more it seems impossible for things to sound the same.  Some things may sound similar, but there are too many variables for everything to sound the same."
 
I was going to quote all the responses to my last post and answer them but I don't think that's necessary any longer.
 
I think that we've established that not all DACs sound the same, and not all amps sound the same (for the various reasons that have been mentioned).
 
We have discussed some of those components that don't sound the same, like theLite DAC-AH, Wadia, HiFiMan, and the Carver amps, and all  the reasons why they sound different. 
 
I'm sure there are other components to add to this list, but my point is that because we have discussed various components that do sound different, like it or not, we have established my initial premise that it's impossible for all DACs and  all Amps to sound the same.
 
To say it another way: Once you have established that there are many exceptions to the rule, the rule is no longer a rule.  And that is as far as I am prepared to take this.
 
Now you'll excuse me while I take my regular seat in the back of the bus.

 
USG
 
 
 
 

 

 

[Shike]

Quote:

we have established my initial premise that it's impossible for all DACs and  all Amps to sound the same.

That's not exactly being truthful either.  Most properly built amps, dacs, and daps will sound the same -- those that don't meet specifications past inaudibility or do some form of sound shaping are the exception to the rule.  It's like saying a cable with a crossover network is proof that all cables can sound different, which is simply not the case.
 

 

[xnor]

I'd put it this way: Devices that were deliberately made to sound colored or are broken or badly designed logically cannot sound the same as transparent gear unless the deviations/deficiencies are too small to cause audible differences (which are well measurable though).
 
edit: I see Shike was faster.

 

[bigshot]

Colored DACs and amps are crappy DACs and amps. Because a snake oil salesman makes a product that is designed to be deliberately crappy, it doesn't mean that all products are crappy.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

That's not exactly being truthful either.  Most properly built amps, dacs, and daps will sound the same -- those that don't meet specifications past inaudibility or do some form of sound shaping are the exception to the rule.  It's like saying a cable with a crossover network is proof that all cables can sound different, which is simply not the case.
 

Quote:

I'd put it this way: Devices that were deliberately made to sound colored or are broken or badly designed logically cannot sound the same as transparent gear unless the deviations/deficiencies are too small to cause audible differences (which are well measurable though).
 
edit: I see Shike was faster.

Quote:

Colored DACs and amps are crappy DACs and amps. Because a snake oil salesman makes a product that is designed to be deliberately crappy, it doesn't mean that all products are crappy.

You guys are all correct in what you've said, but all I intended to establish was that there were units out there that didn't sound the same, and we did that.
 
 

---

 
properly built
sound colored or are broken or badly designed
Colored DACs and amps are crappy
 
If you fellows want to debate those points, I'll join you in another thread. 
 
I have some opinions on "properly built" and "badly designed" but that discussion doesn't belong here.

 
This thread was about the fact that some sound different.  Not why or how.
 
 
USG

 

[Head Injury]

If you never wanted to know why or how things sound different, why did you open your thread with these questions?
 

1. Do all opamps sound the same? 
2. Do all transistors sound the same?
3. Do opamps sound like transistors and vice versa?

1. Does a Hybrid mosfet/opamp dac/amp sound like a mosfet dac/amp or an opamp dac/amp or do all three sound exactly the same?

1. Do capacitors have a sound signature?

1. Do all resistors sound the same?  What about plugs, jacks, switches and volume pots?  Do they all sound the same, regardless of manufacturer?

1. Do premium parts sound different from el cheapo parts, or do all parts sound the same?

1. Can power supplies affect the sound?  Will a dac/amp fed from a switching PS sound the same as one fed from a linear PS? 
2. Does the transformer quality matter?  Do all transformers sound the same?

1. Do all dacs or amps filter power in the same way?  Is clean power important? 
2. Does all casework and shielding sound the same?
3. What about the boards the components are soldered to?  Are some boards better than others?  What about the layout on the board?  Will that affect the sound?

 
Why try to stop the thread now, when all we know is that amps and DACs can sound different? Why not further explore these above questions to understand why or how? That's what science (and the Science subforum) is about.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

If you never wanted to know why or how things sound different, why did you open your thread with these questions?
 

1. Do all opamps sound the same? 
2. Do all transistors sound the same?
3. Do opamps sound like transistors and vice versa?

1. Does a Hybrid mosfet/opamp dac/amp sound like a mosfet dac/amp or an opamp dac/amp or do all three sound exactly the same?

1. Do capacitors have a sound signature?

1. Do all resistors sound the same?  What about plugs, jacks, switches and volume pots?  Do they all sound the same, regardless of manufacturer?

1. Do premium parts sound different from el cheapo parts, or do all parts sound the same?

1. Can power supplies affect the sound?  Will a dac/amp fed from a switching PS sound the same as one fed from a linear PS? 
2. Does the transformer quality matter?  Do all transformers sound the same?

1. Do all dacs or amps filter power in the same way?  Is clean power important? 
2. Does all casework and shielding sound the same?
3. What about the boards the components are soldered to?  Are some boards better than others?  What about the layout on the board?  Will that affect the sound?

 
Why try to stop the thread now, when all we know is that amps and DACs can sound different? Why not further explore these above questions to understand why or how? That's what science (and the Science subforum) is about.

 
If you never wanted to know why or how things sound different, why did you open your thread with these questions?
 
I suppose the idea of the thread was to see if any of these components could have an influence on the sound signature of a complex device such as an amp or dac and thus produce one that sounded different from other amps or dacs.
 
What happened was that during the discussions, various complex devices which historically sounded different surfaced, like the Carver amps for instance.  Once this happened, it was no longer necessary to pursue the possible influences of individual components because all of a sudden we had complete devices that were historically known to sound different from others in their categories. 
 
 
 
 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Once this happened, it was no longer necessary to pursue the possible influences of individual components because all of a sudden we had complete devices that were historically known to sound different from others in their categories.

Carver's amp was purposely colored and distorted.
 
I'm more interested in how things like capacitors, filtered power, casework, and these small things act together to alter the sound, if at all, than in the fact that amps can be broken to sound different. I just don't understand how you could be satisfied with what little has been learned.
 
Why would you want to accept at face value that they can sound different, rather than investigate why they sound different? Why would you not want to expand your investigation to amps which weren't designed to be broken? Why not investigate amps which measure similarly, and what role their parts play in those measurements? If you're going to call the thread over at this point, it's not very scientific.

 

[bigshot]

all I intended to establish was that there were units out there that didn't sound the same, and we did that.
 

Congratulations are in order. You've proved that some nincompoops can't make a good piece of stereo equipment if their life depended on it. I'm sure your mother would be proud.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

What happened was that during the discussions, various complex devices which historically sounded different surfaced, like the Carver amps for instance.

You still don't understand what Bob Carver did. He proved that solid state components could be hobbled to sound exactly like (poorly performing) tube amps. His intent wasn't to create a different sounding amp. It was to prove that tube amps weren't able to do things that solid state ones couldn't with a few screwed up settings.
 
The irony is that the people who want messed up response curves didn't listen to him. They still buy expensive tube amps.