[Head Injury]

Quote:

Confirms that I am looking for some sort of coloration in my gear? When did the DAC1 become the yardstick for neutrality?

When has it been shown to be anything but neutral? The manufacturers provide extensive measurements, echoed by third-party tests. Seeing as the Essence STX also measures neutral except for the output impedance, it stands to reason that if the two sound the same but other DACs don't, those DACs are colored. Again, would you supply information on your preferred DAC, that suggests otherwise?

 

[adamlau]

I do not have a preferred DAC at the moment, though the DAC I am currently using is the Audiolab M-DAC. And just how is neutrality measured for both the ST/STX, and DAC1? Frequency response graphs? What third-party tests? Stereophile? Paid reviews? UPDATE: See M-DAC vs. MH 25.3 vs. W4S DAC-2?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

I do not have a preferred DAC at the moment, though the DAC I am currently using is the Audiolab M-DAC. And just how is neutrality measured for both the ST/STX, and DAC1? Frequency response graphs? What third-party tests? Stereophile? Paid reviews? 

Stereophile has measured both, yes. If you think the reviews were purchased, you might want to e-mail them about it. Though I doubt ASUS would get their money's worth considering the stereotypical audiophile is going to shy away from computer gear. NwAvGuy has measured his Benchmark DAC1. Numerous computer hardware websites have measured the Essence STX, though understandably their tests are less in-depth and often with only Rightmark.

 

[7Karma]

Quote:

 
 
I have to disagree. But the OP will have to demo an external unit himself in order to determine whether there would be any justifiable gains in his setup, or not.
 

you mean like I just pretty much have to try them out firsthand instead of reading reviews and stuff?
 

 

[obobskivich]

That's the cop-out answer; basically "no you can't actually know or demonstrate or support any claim unless you have a subjective view of it and if your view is different than mine it's because you are biophysically inferior to or less experienced than me and therefore you're wrong." If you buy into it, that's fine, but it inherently rejects the scientific method.
Quote:

you mean like I just pretty much have to try them out firsthand instead of reading reviews and stuff?
 

 

 

[NA Blur]

When I did my DAC testing I used my m903's amp stage and three different DAC units.  I was a bit surprised that they all sounded so close if not exactly the same.  A few of them appeared to have more noise than the others, but other than that they sounded the same.  I found filtering on the amp side of things, while conducting amp tests in a similar manor, to be a bigger factor in coloring the sound.  Of course in the end it is a combination of 5 things.
 
1.)  Clean power and noise
2.)  Source Material
3.)  DAC
4.)  Amp
5.)  Headphones
 
I should probably add ears because my hearing is far worse than my wife's and I am sure music sounds almost completely different to her.  I do tend to favor a respectable and highly regarded DAC manufacturer more than an off-brand primarily for quality in the build.  For those of us using integrated devices with a DAC and amp stage ran in series it is really hard to separate the two properly.  That is why I ran the DACs through just the amp stage of the m903.

 

[borizm]

By the way, DAC chip CS4398 alone easily drive my 600 ohm headphones - 250 ohm too but with some difficulities with stronger dumping factor - I need current buffers .
I have done yesterday some changes in cables to be able to plug headphones (DT150, K240 Sextett) in ballanced way directly to four pins of CS4398 DAC chip. Sounds way better than before, with op-amps involved (I have tried many op-amps without satisfying results).
This delta-sigma DAC isn't so bad after all, but hasn't the power, life and space of typical multibit. Too much incaccurate digital processing.

 

[nofacemonster]

Sorry to wake the old thread. I bought this out of curiosity because i am new to this audio hype about DAC's etc. I was thinking it was a stupid thing to do until it arrived day before. I have a crappy old computer with a Soundmax HD sound onboard and a HP Laptop with IDT onboard sound with Dolby (something). I also have a Iphone 5 and MI Redmix 4X.

Soon after i plugged the DAC in to old desktop computer it began to notice the difference in sound. it was so clear, and the instruments sounded independent than being mashed together. Vocals stood out, and i have this feeling of STEREO separation has heightened in a very revealing way.

I think if this cheap 6$ something DAC can do it.... imagine what wonders a 300$ or 500$ DAC can do?.

Only let down of this little thing is it cuts off bass if it is none existent. I really wish it had amount of BASS that on-board sound-chip and other stuff i have so i would love to use it over and over.

 

[wotef]

Where's that DBT-free forum?

All these reductive "all DACs sound the same" posts. This is like saying all CD players sound the same. Perfect sound forever!

I'm sure the Xonar is pretty good, so is a Lynx. So is a Benchmark. So is a Chord Dave, and so is a Nagra. Do they make a difference? They can. How much...depends. But is someone going to argue they would take a Xonar over a Nagra?

 

[Sterling2]

My appreciation for digital audio began in 1982. I simply liked the idea that I could listen to music without being distracted by the snap, crackle, and pops of vinyl, which destroyed the illusion of "being there". But, for sure, the technology was not perfect and neither was the sound. I suspect mostly it was about insufficient error correction concepts being applied then. But, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1992, the DAC seemed to have indeed been perfected, at least to my ears. I got this impression from listening experience in the studio producing radio commercials. During that period, I was so enamored by the sound of the Sony PCM-7000 series DAT recorders that I bought a pair of them. I believe these recorders have Burr-Brown ladder DACs. Today, I occasionally record on these circa 1995 Sony PCM-7010F Time-Code DAT Recorders at 16/44.1 or 16/48; and, I've got to tell ya, the sound is great. So, my thought is this: an aspiring audiophile's quest today might be better served by contemplating upgrades in another arena than digital audio conversion. I don't doubt at all that DACs are better today, but, if you can't hear it, what's the point. It might be better to just upgrade speakers which have qualities that can be easily understood. Of course, if you can perceive there's a DAC out there today which does seem to sound better or more accurate than what you've got, why argue about it with anyone here, just get it and enjoy. BTW, my informed opinion to the question, do DACs make a difference - - perceptually yes, subjectively maybe, and objectively (as measured by my ears) no. Also, there's a real good YouTube video on DACs by Paul McGowan. He's the guy that founded PS Audio. He explains ladder DACs, Sigma/Delta DACs, and DAC filters, as well as what it is that gives us an impression of a DAC sounding different from others, or even identical DACs sounding different when the analog output is different between devices being reviewed.

 

[stalepie]

Sorry to wake the old thread. I bought this out of curiosity because i am new to this audio hype about DAC's etc. I was thinking it was a stupid thing to do until it arrived day before. I have a crappy old computer with a Soundmax HD sound onboard and a HP Laptop with IDT onboard sound with Dolby (something). I also have a Iphone 5 and MI Redmix 4X.

Soon after i plugged the DAC in to old desktop computer it began to notice the difference in sound. it was so clear, and the instruments sounded independent than being mashed together. Vocals stood out, and i have this feeling of STEREO separation has heightened in a very revealing way.

I think if this cheap 6$ something DAC can do it.... imagine what wonders a 300$ or 500$ DAC can do?.

Only let down of this little thing is it cuts off bass if it is none existent. I really wish it had amount of BASS that on-board sound-chip and other stuff i have so i would love to use it over and over.

I think I got that DAC you mention, or one like it, also sold as "ELE EL-D00"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Details-about-ELE-AUDIO-EL-D00-PCM2704-MINI-USB-DAC-SOUND-CARD-GREEN/232418727141?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

That has some wrapping over it.

There's also ELE EL-D01 and D02.

I have the D02, too.

But the D00 "lacks bass" because it is just a DAC. Pay attention to the title and description as it makes no mention of amplification. I don't know too much how all this works, but I didn't realize either. So plugging the output from the PCM2704 stick you got to a separate amplifier might sound good.

I also have this white stick one that has PCM2704 on it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCM2704-Mini-USB-Powered-Sound-Card-DAC-Decoder-3-5mm-DC-5V-for-PC-Computer/202085722272?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

I thought it looked nicer and tends to cost just a little bit more (dollar or two), and as you can see it has those two yellow capacitors on it, which add some amplification, I think, and indeed has a little more bass. Unfortunately the output power can be too much for IEMs (my expected use), so I have to keep the volume down low. I like how with the regular PCM2704 stick (yours) I can play with the Windows volume much more, even though it's not really meant for direct listening.

However, I want to mention another cheap device that sounds better than these... the "X5," which can be found by searching for PCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308, like this:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XPCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308..TRS0&_nkw=PCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308&_sacat=0

or maybe just "X5 USB DAC"

I got this last year and still like it better than these others I keep trying. I'm curious about the subject, and posted about it here:

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pcm2704-usb-dacs.2203/

I don't know too much about engineering and sound, but I often wonder "how low can you go?" and "why do some phones and portable players sound so good, but my PC doesn't"

It's still a frustration to me. It seems like it should be possible to have very good sound for very cheap out of a small device, but usually there's some catch, like extra noise or problems with the volume controls, distortion, or cheap manufacturing where the parts are fake (supposedly) or misaligned. (For instance, with my white USB stick the volume jack was attached at an angle, more so than is shown in their eBay ad).

But that X5 product, despite picking up too much noise from my PC (EMI interference, I guess), has a good sound to it. Not perfectly sharp or clear, but a bit bigger than expected (open, airy somewhat), with padded bass, more enjoyable than the others to me.

I'm still on the lookout for other devices. Here is one I tried:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CM108-TDA1305T-TDA1308-3-5mm-Output-USB-Amp-USB-Sound-Card-DAC-Decoder-5V/272909483959?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Unfortunately it picks up even more noise from my computer I think. I tried it out of my PS4 and I didn't hear noise, though I was using bigger headphones and not IEMs, so maybe I should make sure with sensitive IEMs to see how bad it is. But it does have an interesting sound, if "lo-fi" (as its looks might suggest). The TDA1305 apparently came out around 1995, but in large measure the device sounds similar to more recent stuff to my ears, it's just a little more muddled and seems to have a sturdy/dense bass area to it and less highs. It has a "slower" sound, I think, as some use that word...

And if you are curious, here's a couple of others I was considering (fascinated by the broken English in the descriptions):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132104200568
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272386375604
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253062529855
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142120618777


etc.


I know I should quit and just get something higher quality, but I find it more interesting to explore and chance upon things without really knowing what i'm doing

(I do think there is a difference in cheaper, amateur products... it is when you get into real "high fidelity" (accurate) sound that the differences should disappear... because that's the whole point, the product is merely trying to be accurate, so one accurate product should sound the same as the next... as an example of how some behave though, they openly describe their product as having tweaked sound, for instance this ad:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-XMOS-XU208-Asynchronous-USB-DAC-Sound-Card-384K-DSD256-Native-Headphone-AMP/263416456770?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=562436301541&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

It says:

"The DAC is specially tweaked by ourselves for smooth,reality and detailed sound, The original product from manufacture is a little harsh and dry,especially the treble,It is not smooth enough, We are experienced in tweaking audio products, The sound is much different from other seller's,The sound is very smooth and silky,Also make a bigger stage scence and rich timbre, The audio source is the most important for an audio system,I assure that the tweaked DAC will surprise you."

 

[al404]

I use an iMac to listen to music while I work and it does have a big issue, if the audio cable is plugged in the audio output is not possible tu use built in speakers
The only solution is plug and unplug the headphone, and the input jack is on the back
I did many research online but it seems an hardware limitation if something is plugged in the computer output only from that cable

I was thinking to get an USB DAC that I guess should be seen as an additional output source, any experience?
As far as I understand something like this should work, would also sound better than iMac output?
https://www.amazon.com/Fiio-E17K-ALPEN-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00RPD7KP8/

 

[robertbudding]

I came across this excellent video about digital encoding that dispels many myths about digital.

 

[robertbudding]

I use an iMac to listen to music while I work and it does have a big issue, if the audio cable is plugged in the audio output is not possible tu use built in speakers
The only solution is plug and unplug the headphone, and the input jack is on the back
I did many research online but it seems an hardware limitation if something is plugged in the computer output only from that cable

I was thinking to get an USB DAC that I guess should be seen as an additional output source, any experience?
As far as I understand something like this should work, would also sound better than iMac output?
https://www.amazon.com/Fiio-E17K-ALPEN-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00RPD7KP8/

I use a Teac UD-301 DAC with my old Mac Pro tower (USB, TOSLINK, and Coax inputs). It has a headphone amp (not very powerful), and it can also can function as a pre-amp.

 

[nofacemonster]

I think I got that DAC you mention, or one like it, also sold as "ELE EL-D00"

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Details-about-ELE-AUDIO-EL-D00-PCM2704-MINI-USB-DAC-SOUND-CARD-GREEN/232418727141?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

That has some wrapping over it.

There's also ELE EL-D01 and D02.

I have the D02, too.

But the D00 "lacks bass" because it is just a DAC. Pay attention to the title and description as it makes no mention of amplification. I don't know too much how all this works, but I didn't realize either. So plugging the output from the PCM2704 stick you got to a separate amplifier might sound good.

I also have this white stick one that has PCM2704 on it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCM2704-Mini-USB-Powered-Sound-Card-DAC-Decoder-3-5mm-DC-5V-for-PC-Computer/202085722272?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

I thought it looked nicer and tends to cost just a little bit more (dollar or two), and as you can see it has those two yellow capacitors on it, which add some amplification, I think, and indeed has a little more bass. Unfortunately the output power can be too much for IEMs (my expected use), so I have to keep the volume down low. I like how with the regular PCM2704 stick (yours) I can play with the Windows volume much more, even though it's not really meant for direct listening.

However, I want to mention another cheap device that sounds better than these... the "X5," which can be found by searching for PCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308, like this:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XPCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308..TRS0&_nkw=PCM2706+CS4344+TDA1308&_sacat=0

or maybe just "X5 USB DAC"

I got this last year and still like it better than these others I keep trying. I'm curious about the subject, and posted about it here:

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pcm2704-usb-dacs.2203/

I don't know too much about engineering and sound, but I often wonder "how low can you go?" and "why do some phones and portable players sound so good, but my PC doesn't"

It's still a frustration to me. It seems like it should be possible to have very good sound for very cheap out of a small device, but usually there's some catch, like extra noise or problems with the volume controls, distortion, or cheap manufacturing where the parts are fake (supposedly) or misaligned. (For instance, with my white USB stick the volume jack was attached at an angle, more so than is shown in their eBay ad).

But that X5 product, despite picking up too much noise from my PC (EMI interference, I guess), has a good sound to it. Not perfectly sharp or clear, but a bit bigger than expected (open, airy somewhat), with padded bass, more enjoyable than the others to me.

I'm still on the lookout for other devices. Here is one I tried:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CM108-TDA1305T-TDA1308-3-5mm-Output-USB-Amp-USB-Sound-Card-DAC-Decoder-5V/272909483959?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Unfortunately it picks up even more noise from my computer I think. I tried it out of my PS4 and I didn't hear noise, though I was using bigger headphones and not IEMs, so maybe I should make sure with sensitive IEMs to see how bad it is. But it does have an interesting sound, if "lo-fi" (as its looks might suggest). The TDA1305 apparently came out around 1995, but in large measure the device sounds similar to more recent stuff to my ears, it's just a little more muddled and seems to have a sturdy/dense bass area to it and less highs. It has a "slower" sound, I think, as some use that word...

And if you are curious, here's a couple of others I was considering (fascinated by the broken English in the descriptions):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132104200568
https://www.ebay.com/itm/272386375604
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253062529855
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142120618777


etc.


I know I should quit and just get something higher quality, but I find it more interesting to explore and chance upon things without really knowing what i'm doing

(I do think there is a difference in cheaper, amateur products... it is when you get into real "high fidelity" (accurate) sound that the differences should disappear... because that's the whole point, the product is merely trying to be accurate, so one accurate product should sound the same as the next... as an example of how some behave though, they openly describe their product as having tweaked sound, for instance this ad:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-XMOS-XU208-Asynchronous-USB-DAC-Sound-Card-384K-DSD256-Native-Headphone-AMP/263416456770?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=562436301541&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

It says:

"The DAC is specially tweaked by ourselves for smooth,reality and detailed sound, The original product from manufacture is a little harsh and dry,especially the treble,It is not smooth enough, We are experienced in tweaking audio products, The sound is much different from other seller's,The sound is very smooth and silky,Also make a bigger stage scence and rich timbre, The audio source is the most important for an audio system,I assure that the tweaked DAC will surprise you."

Thank you so much for your valued time and reply. i am going through your post now. ) Thanks again!!