[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NajoBB /img/forum/go_quote.gif One question: why everyone thinks that equalizer do more damage (distortion) than benefit when majority of the people that I've seen post here can't even tell the difference between mp3 and lossless?

I'm one of those people who have a hard time discerning well-encoded MP3 from lossless. Anyway, it's my experience that additional electronics in the signal path have a significant impact on the purity of sound. That doesn't just apply to equalizers, but also to amps (I've done several experiments comparing «direct connexion» and headphone amps). Note that analogue equalizers make the signal path extremely complicated, hence have a correspondingly negative impact. And digital equalizers will make your select integrated CD/multiformat player sound as good as the DAC in the EQ. Moreover, you can't use high-rez sources with it, unless you additionally use the built-in ADC... So additional signal corruption is programmed. The only way to avoid this kind of damage is to restrict yourself to redbook CD and use a separate DAC, so you can switch the digital EQ between your transport and your DAC.
.

 

[BigJohn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frequency imbalances can become apparent more in some songs than others. Particularly with rock music that often doesn't have a full spectrum of sound in every song anyway. Your muddy bass could either be a dip in the low mids, softening the impact of the plucked bass notes, or speakers that are overdriving or poorly designed, making them unable to respond fast enough to high energy low bass signals. See ya Steve

I quote this post because apparently you haven't looked at my sig, or are not even remotely familair with the equipment I am using.
While not "high end" in some peoples eyes, because it doesn't cost a gazillion dollars/euro's (!) it's a very decent system, believe me.
There's nothing wrong with the system as it is.
In fact, it sounds great in my living room, as it should in most other rooms.
I've heard a whole lot more expensive systems, "high end" and "professional", to know I'm not missing much in terms of SQ.
I admit I'm not getting the lowest of octaves, not right, and not at all in fact...
But then again, who do get 20Hz right in his living room..?
But it's able to play my music very well, with reasonable to great recordings.
So please don't blame the equipment for what I'm experiencing...
My speakers are not overdriven by a long shot!
Never!
And "poorly designed"?!
Give me a break...
No reviewer ever has blamed Dynaudio for "poorly engineering" the 1.3SE's, more the opposite I think...
What I experience while listening to the speakers on the track listed below, is the same as what I experience while listening to the track wit the the Grado RS2 and the Musical Fidelity.

I'll give one example and then maybe it is best to leave it alone like Steven said...
Try this track (this is not the most horrible one I've encountered, but I'm listening to it right now...)

The Very Best Of SHERYL CROW (LC 00485. 0602498610930)
Track Nr. 11 "Picture" (Kid Rock featuring Sheryl Crow)
This track is produced by Kid Rock.
Engineered bij Al Button.
And mixed by Kid Rock and Al Button.

I hope someone will take the trouble to listen to this track...
And then tell me you don't hear a "standing wave" there on the recording.
I don't know how it's possible that a "standing wave" (I don't know what else to call it...) is recorded like that, but that's what I think I hear...

The above is a perfect example of poor engineering/mixing and it would be nice to eq that away when playing that track.

I understand some peoples chagrin because we're talking about different things here now and then, but still...

I experiance a whole lot of knowledge here, and a very extensive background on the topic(s) presented here, and am glad to read and learn from some people.

Let's leave it at this and enjoy our music while we can!

 

[NajoBB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm one of those people who have a hard time discerning well-encoded MP3 from lossless. Anyway, it's my experience that additional electronics in the signal path have a significant impact on the purity of sound. That doesn't just apply to equalizers, but also to amps (I've done several experiments comparing «direct connexion» and headphone amps). Note that analogue equalizers make the signal path extremely complicated, hence have a correspondingly negative impact. And digital equalizers will make your select integrated CD/multiformat player sound as good as the DAC in the EQ. Moreover, you can't use high-rez sources with it, unless you additionally use the built-in ADC... So additional signal corruption is programmed. The only way to avoid this kind of damage is to restrict yourself to redbook CD and use a separate DAC, so you can switch the digital EQ between your transport and your DAC. .

I don't have experience whit high end equipment but i can tell you this for sure: to my ear so far the things that make huge difference are amp, dac, encoding and burning in. I can plug my headphones to a 20 feet 5$ extension cable without noticing the difference in sound quality. Don't know why. Same stuff for equalizer. But like i sad, i need some experience with high end stuff. Most expensive amp was my x-can v3 that i like for now.
But seen yours and other long time headfiers posts, I'm interested in experimenting for further sound improvement. But i really hope to never feel the difference by equalization because it helps mi allot. Some times, ignorance really is a bliss, at least in my case

 

[Tokenganjaclan]

YES!!! Eq set to ROCK if there was a METAL setting I'd use it. I ROCK HARD BABY!!!!

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn /img/forum/go_quote.gif I quote this post because apparently you haven't looked at my sig, or are not even remotely familair with the equipment I am using.

You said you had muddy bass. I was just offering some suggestions for what might be causing it. No need to take it personally. If it isn't the design of your speakers or the track itself, odds are your room is absorbing the low mids/top bass, which can reduce the punch of the bass. Muddy bass really isn't a frequency extension problem- you don't need to go down to 20kHz- all that's down there is rumble. It's a matter of balance within the frequencies your speakers are producing. I would bet you've got a dip somewhere around 100Hz (or a bump below that).

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastek /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't use EQ because equalization stages are essentially elaborate tone control circuits that add additional components to the signal path leading to degradation and colorization of the audio signal.:.

So is your volume control knob.

See ya
Steve

 

[Rastek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif So is your volume control knob. See ya Steve

As such Steve, so is the entire amplifier and all other components in the recording/reproduction/amplification chain. To take your analogy to the extreme, we should not listen to recorded/electronically reproduced music at all and should only attend live acoustic performances. My point was: The fewer paths that the audio signal has to pass through, the more likely the amplified signal will resemble the original signal. In an effort to reduce the number of paths the signal passes through, some stages and therefore components are more readily dispensed with than others, such as tone controls and/or eq stages. Volume controls are required to control signal levels, protect our ears and speakers or headphones. Eq stages/tone controls are therefore less important and do more damage to the audio signal than do volume controls.:.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Volume controls are required to control signal levels, protect our ears and speakers or headphones. Eq stages/tone controls are therefore less important and do more damage to the audio signal than do volume controls.:.

For a speaker system, equalization is almost as important as the volume control and is responsible for about the same audible degradation (ie: none).

See ya
Steve

 

[Rastek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif For a speaker system, equalization is almost as important as the volume control and is responsible for about the same audible degradation (ie: none). See ya Steve

Spoken like a true non-engineer. A signal generator and oscilloscope will quickly disprove your theory.:.

 

[BigJohn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif You said you had muddy bass. I was just offering some suggestions for what might be causing it. No need to take it personally. If it isn't the design of your speakers or the track itself, odds are your room is absorbing the low mids/top bass, which can reduce the punch of the bass. Muddy bass really isn't a frequency extension problem- you don't need to go down to 20kHz- all that's down there is rumble. It's a matter of balance within the frequencies your speakers are producing. I would bet you've got a dip somewhere around 100Hz (or a bump below that). See ya Steve

Yo Steve,

I wasn't taking it personally, really...

It's just that on some records things have gone horribly wrong during the recording process, and that's were I was referring to.
Read my post more carefully and you'll see that the same thing(s) occure while listening to the headphone, so the room characteristics don't come into play.
Here in Holland allmost all the houses are made of brick and concrete, and very sturdy.
If you don't choose enormous large loudspeakers and place them not to near to the walls, everybody is able to get a decent sound quality.
I'm talking about the recording(s) not the system.

Greetz!

Johnny

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spoken like a true non-engineer. A signal generator and oscilloscope will quickly disprove your theory.:.

I haven't done that. But I have done a direct A/B comparison of my EQ at flat cut into the circuit and the same thing with no EQ in line. I can't hear any difference at all. Since I listen with my ears, not an oscilloscope, I really don't care about signal degradation that I can't hear. I can DEFINITELY hear the improvement that proper equalization makes on my system. Huge improvement.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm talking about the recording(s) not the system.

In the 50s and 60s, every recording studio had monitors that were calibrated to give a flat response. Now engineers mix with whatever they happen to have in their garage studio. A lot mix to bookshelf speakers because "that's what the people listening with be listening on". It's resulted in chaos. I'm afraid the only way to correct that sort of thing is to EQ by ear on a recording by recording basis.

Or just return the CD and buy one that's properly engineered.

See ya
Steve

 

[TickTockMan]

Yes and no. It depends on what I'm listening through. Using an iPod Classic, if I'm using my ER4-P's I leave the EQ off, or on flat. If I'm using the Sennheiser CX300's, I sometimes use acoustic.

 

[BigJohn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the 50s and 60s, every recording studio had monitors that were calibrated to give a flat response. Now engineers mix with whatever they happen to have in their garage studio. A lot mix to bookshelf speakers because "that's what the people listening with be listening on". It's resulted in chaos. I'm afraid the only way to correct that sort of thing is to EQ by ear on a recording by recording basis. Or just return the CD and buy one that's properly engineered. See ya Steve

I never knew that was the case in the 50's and 60's...

There's an old saying here in Holland that goes; "in the past everything was better" (it sounds a lot better in Dutch...

)
This is definitely one instance that that is true!

 

[BigJohn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't done that. But I have done a direct A/B comparison of my EQ at flat cut into the circuit and the same thing with no EQ in line. I can't hear any difference at all. Since I listen with my ears, not an oscilloscope, I really don't care about signal degradation that I can't hear. I can DEFINITELY hear the improvement that proper equalization makes on my system. Huge improvement. See ya Steve

I would like to try a good equalizer in my system...

I will try to borrow one tomorrow, and tell you my what I think of it.