Do you really hear differences in cables?
Nov 25, 2004 at 3:46 AM Post #766 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by rhfactor
Ah, you forget that we believe that there are no differences between the sound of 12awg zipcord and $750/ft cryo-treated silver dipped in snake oil under a full moon on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month. Yet people still buy the latter, so it's very easy for us to believe that few people would buy the former.
It's been my experience that as with everything in life, the law of diminishing returns applies. At some point the returns diminish to inaudibility.



Ah, but you forget that you're in the vast minority, and as such the majority of us would be lined up around the block if the opportunity arose to purchase a product that offered 10 times the sound at one tenth the price as in the case of Carver vs. Conrad-Johnson.
And sure, I whole heartedly agree that the laws of diminishing returns in some cases do apply, but I don't see what that has to do with what we're talking about here, which is that in the real world, the solid state Carver 1.5 sounds anything at all like a $10,000 Conrad-Johnson tubed monblock amp.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 3:49 AM Post #767 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier
JaZZ,I actually conducted a ABX test with my wife and was shocked that she didn't detect the "audiophile" configuration. (This was when my mind was more open minded about this. Like others, I *want* to believe; however, conclude that a person can *only imagine the difference*.)JF


What was your listening rig made up of? Did it possess the resolution necessary to resolve the differences that some say exist in wiring and cables?
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 7:14 AM Post #768 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorg
Not necessarily. Just looking for that difference. Frankly, I want to join the team "believers". But I couldn't hear it when I was making A/B and this theme didn't get much of my attention after this test though I wasn't sure cables can't make any difference. I just figured that I better upgrade all other components before trying to find a difference between cheap and expensive cables.


Sorry. It is my English. With "you" I here mean that everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables. And it is first when you are a believer that superconductivity is interesting.
I have searched in google but i am still not sure what superconductivity is. I can understand it of the word of course, but could you explain it for an amateur in more simple words than I found in my google searching?
Georg
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 12:13 PM Post #769 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langrath
Sorry. It is my English. With "you" I here mean that everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables. And it is first when you are a believer that superconductivity is interesting.
I have searched in google but i am still not sure what superconductivity is. I can understand it of the word of course, but could you explain it for an amateur in more simple words than I found in my google searching?
Georg



My English is not perfect too
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In easy words: there are some materials that have almost 0 resistance when cooled to a very low temperature. The very best thing is that several materials are known to be superconductors even at temperatures higher than the nitrogens freezing point. It's very cheap to get a liquid nitrogen (the technology is wide-spread). I can see some companies (Nordost?) offering superconductors as ICs and speaker cables in the near future. It would really do nothing to the signal except of the RCA/XLR jacks (they can pass even these if they make a technology to built them into the speaker) and it can be made not very thick. I can see it priced higher than Valhalla but not because of prime cost. It is really cheap to make such a superconductor.

http://www.southafrica.globalsources...1W2/PBUCKY.HTM

You can see in this article that the first material was discovered more than 3 years ago (the first that gives opportunity of cheap superconductivity). After that several other materials were discovered also.

Now the hardest question is would it make any difference to the sound or would it be just pure marketing? I can't answer to this question. This problem deserves a good investigation, but I really doubt that the type of using materials (starting from OFC) makes any difference. If there is a difference, it is probably because of bad shielding and some other factors. Just IMHO.

P.S. There IS a measurable difference between OFC and silver, but I doubt it is near audible levels.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 1:12 PM Post #770 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langrath
Sorry. It is my English. With "you" I here mean that everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables. And it is first when you are a believer that superconductivity is interesting.
I have searched in google but i am still not sure what superconductivity is. I can understand it of the word of course, but could you explain it for an amateur in more simple words than I found in my google searching?
Georg



I wasn't a believer when I bought my Cardas ICs and headphone cable, I just had an open mind. I bought the cables and tested them. When I found that they resulted in a positive audible difference within my system, I kept them and thus became a believer..
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Nov 25, 2004 at 5:10 PM Post #771 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langrath
With "you" I here mean that everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables.


That is false assumption. Lots of people try high end cables, including silver cables, without any expectation of what they might do. In some instances, people who try them are actually disbelievers (like I was) who take advantage of liberal return policies offered by cable vendors with the intent of trying to cables in a system merely to confirm that they do NOT make a difference. Sometimes the disbelievers get converted. I suspect that many others who try a particular cable may be neutral on the issue, or who may believe that cables make a difference, but may have no expectation about whether the particular cable that they are trying will improve or worsen the sound in their system.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 5:34 PM Post #772 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS
That is false assumption. Lots of people try high end cables, including silver cables, without any expectation of what they might do. In some instances, people who try them are actually disbelievers (like I was) who take advantage of liberal return policies offered by cable vendors with the intent of trying to cables in a system merely to confirm that they do NOT make a difference. Sometimes the disbelievers get converted. I suspect that many others who try a particular cable may be neutral on the issue, or who may believe that cables make a difference, but may have no expectation about whether the particular cable that they are trying will improve or worsen the sound in their system.


I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that you must be a believer to try silver cables. Of course not. I said that you must be a believer to use silver cables. Otherwise you should sell them or return them to store.

Georg
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 6:20 PM Post #773 of 810
There was an interesting article in the most recent edition of the GB publication Hi-Fi. They did blind testing and the listeners consistently could differentiate between cables.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 6:22 PM Post #774 of 810
So, we seem to have two camps:

"Objectivists": If we don't have a scientific rationale for it, and can't meaure it in an objective manner, it doesn't exist.

"Subjectivists": We hear what we hear. If there is no rationale, and we can't measure it objectively, find a new rationale and refine the measurement.

Of the two, the subjectivist approach actually is closer to the true scientific method. The objectivist approach to measuring perceptual differences has long since taken a wrong turn, and is not attempting to address serious methodological flaws.

For example, in any given ABX test, what control groups are run to insure that the test is sensitive to differences in aspects of sound that are known to be detectable to the human ear. Without some objective index that a test is capable of detecting known differences, much less hypthetical ones, the test is useless from a scientific standpoint, much less a hobbyist one.

Any objective test has to take into account the nature of the process of perception. The assumption is usually made that perception goes one way. That is, a receptor is triggered, a response is sent to the brain, which we can either detect or not. If not, there is a tendency to invoke the magic word "placebo" and call it not real. However, this is only part of the story. The path from receptor to brain can be called "bottom-up" perceptual processing. However, there is another set of neural pathways going from the brain that actually modulate the input received by the brain. These pathways can be inhibitory, and can actually block an impulse triggered by a receptor from ever reaching the brain. This is "top-down" processing. It's one of the ways that the brain modulates input. The literature on this goes back many years.

So, we ask another set of questions. Under what conditions would a signal from a receptor be inhibited? Would it be inhibited in some people but not others? What would be the factors that would cause a stimulus to be perceptable or not? Some of these factors are psychological, and not physical. How does attention modulate perception? In a complex sonic environment, attention allows us to hear things of interest to us, and filter out others. Think of a crowded room, with multiple conversations going on, and then someone mentions your name in one of the conversations. You might not have been picking up anything from that conversation previously, but you will be now.

How about fatigue effects? For some perceptual stimuli, we habituate, and become less sensitive over time. For others, we sensitize, and become more sensitive. For still others, we are insensitive until a learning process occurs. Why are some systems fatiguing over the long haul (but sound great when we first hear them)? Will a DBT or ABX quantify this in any way?

Want to talk about whether cable differences are real or not? Then you need to understand all of these phenomena, and include many others that I can't fit into a short internet response, and include them in your testing scheme. Until then, all a so-called "objective" test can do is to tell you that you're not hearing a difference under a given set of conditions in a given time and place. Whether you would hear differences under other conditions, in other setups, with other experiences, simply cannot be generalized from the test.

The oversimplification of the word "placebo" doesn't work. As used by the objectivists, it's a catchall to describe any perceived effect that they can't explain. A question for them: "Is that really science?" Before using the word "placebo", it would be useful to understand exactly what's going on with it. In part, it could explain subjective impressions of non-existent differences ...or are they really non-existent? Remember, the brain can filter perception. It's equally likely that the brain can filter out real and measureable sonic differences as it is that it is causing people to hear things that are not. In fact, the so-called "placebo effect" may be reflective of the brain's filtering of perceptual stimuli, to the point where perceived differences where none actually exist is occurring in the nervous system. While the stimuli may have been identical at the receptor level, differences in filtering could cause the differences in the stimuli to become very real by the time the impulse actually reaches the brain.

There are also certain replicable ways that perceptual systems routinely distort incoming signals (see any optical illusion for an example). These tend to be shortcuts, that allow us to perceive and react to stimuli without having to spend hours processing them. They also need to be accounted for in any model of how we perceive an acoustic stimuli.

If you're getting the idea that perception is a complex process, you're getting closer. Use of any test involving perceptual differences needs to take into account the nature of perception. I've long since learned that methods for "objectively" measuring perceptual stimuli really aren't.

I haven't even bothered with methodological issues, for the most part. Suppose that you go through the whole process, do the statistics, and find that the reported differences between pairs of cables is not significant with alpha set at 0.05 (conventional in science). What does this mean? At alpha= 0.05, there's still one chance in twenty that the reported absence of a difference is wrong. And there's still no indicator of just how probable it is that the reported absence of a difference is wrong. That's a second statistic, sometimes called beta. I've yet to see any ABX test report this, but I'm open to reading one.

True "scientific" study of why some people hear differences between cables is going to be a much more complicated process than simply whipping out the old ABX box. Until then, my idea of the hobby is that it's intended to maximize the enjoyment I get out of listening to music. For my purposes, if I hear it, it's real enough for me.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 6:46 PM Post #775 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch
Of the two, the subjectivist approach actually is closer to the true scientific method. The objectivist approach to measuring perceptual differences has long since taken a wrong turn, and is not attempting to address serious methodological flaws.


There just hasn't been done enough investigation to prove the difference.

If there is a difference, it can be measured. Obviously science has enough knowledge to explain every difference in the cables.

True objectivist approach is not close to the true scientific method. It IS the scientific method.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 7:36 PM Post #776 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch
Until then, all a so-called "objective" test can do is to tell you that you're not hearing a difference under a given set of conditions in a given time and place.


Or -- with a bit of luck -- that you can hear and there is in fact a difference.
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Good post, Hirsch!

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Nov 25, 2004 at 8:08 PM Post #777 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Langrath
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that you must be a believer to try silver cables. Of course not. I said that you must be a believer to use silver cables. Otherwise you should sell them or return them to store.

Georg



Maybe I misunderstood. Your post said "everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables." (Emphasis added.) That is what my comment was referring to.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 8:14 PM Post #778 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorg
Obviously science has enough knowledge to explain every difference in the cables.


This is not so "obvious" to me, since people are hearing differences, and science hasn't explained it yet. Hirsch's post perhaps explains some of the reasons why.
 
Nov 25, 2004 at 8:14 PM Post #779 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS
Maybe I misunderstood. Your post said "everyone that uses silver cables must be a believer before he or she buys such cables." (Emphasis added.) That is what my comment was referring to.


Don't be so critical to persons with English as a secondary language
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Nov 25, 2004 at 8:17 PM Post #780 of 810
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS
This is not so "obvious" to me, since people are hearing differences, and science hasn't explained it yet. Hirsch's post perhaps explains some of the reasons why.


Are you a scientist?

This theme is not interesting for science. Give me some money and I'll make this investigation for you.
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