Do you really hear differences in cables?

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by cecirdr So...if someone experiences highs being a bit more forward that doesn't reduce to there being any difference in measurable "stuff" such as a frequency response curve?

Most likely not.

 

[rodbac]

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Actually it's the other way round: the Senn cable does more harm to the original signal.

And I repeat myself once again: It would cost Senn more money to "do harm" to the signal than to just leave it alone. In this application, wire almost cannot help but get the signal to the phones unaltered unless it's specifically designed not to do so.

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What do you think is built into those aftermarket cables that can alter the signal in a euphonic or compensating way?

No idea- I don't design them. I'm only giving you (and them) the benefit of the doubt. (I have conversed with a number of highly educated people in this field who talk about introducing capacitance as-a-matter-of-factly, so I assume it's not terribly hard, but if I get a chance, I'll ask them again exactly how it's done)

 

[saint.panda]

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Originally Posted by rodbac And I repeat myself once again: It would cost Senn more money to "do harm" to the signal than to just leave it alone. In this application, wire almost cannot help but get the signal to the phones unaltered unless it's specifically designed not to do so.

And how do you leave it alone? What is "wire"? Do you mean copper, silver, gold, an alloy, berrylium, palladium, or even steel,... there is no simple "wire" that does nothing to the sound.

 

[ILikeMusic]

All of the debate can be ended one way or the other by some simple blind testing. What are those opposed to this concept so afraid of?

Of course I'm being disingenuous here... we know what they're afraid of...

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by rodbac No idea - I don't design them. I'm only giving you (and them) the benefit of the doubt. (I have conversed with a number of highly educated people in this field who talk about introducing capacitance as-a-matter-of-factly, so I assume it's not terribly hard, but if I get a chance, I'll ask them again exactly how it's done)

I have measured stock cable, Oehlbach, Silver Dragon and Zu Mobius. The electrical values are quite close -- no hint of exaggerated capacitance with the aftermarket cables.

 

[rodbac]

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What is "wire"? Do you mean copper, silver, gold, an alloy, berrylium, palladium, or even steel,... there is no simple "wire" that does nothing to the sound.

Yes there is.

Look, I've said all I can say on this in every way I know how, multiple times. I can't continue to answer "well, why this and why that?" questions- if you say there's no difference between the stock specs and the Zu specs, I have nothing else to offer you but "what is it that you think you're hearing, then?"

The only explanations I've heard are akin to pixie dust and magic. If you want to drink the kool-aid, please do so.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by markl I submit that if you argue B, logically, you have to be open to the possibility that it's the *stock cable* not the aftermarket cable that is mucking with the sound.

No, since he's outed himself to be a Sennheiser stock-cable believer.

 

[tiberian]

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Originally Posted by ILikeMusic All of the debate can be ended one way or the other by some simple blind testing. What are those opposed to this concept so afraid of? Of course I'm being disingenuous here... we know what they're afraid of...

why don't you buy a aftermarket cable and do a DBT yourself smartass? you are one of those who brought out the question.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by rodbac ...if you say there's no difference between the stock specs and the Zu specs, I have nothing else to offer you but "what is it that you think you're hearing, then?"

Sonic differences. I don't have the explanation how they would appear in measurings, but I'm sure they can be measured with existing equipment -- with the right (complex, dynamic) signals, but not with sine waves. Because that's what measurings are based on today.


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The only explanations I've heard are akin to pixie dust and magic. If you want to drink the kool-aid, please do so.

I see your problem. You think it's physically impossible for cables to cause sonic differences -- with a traditionalist electric world view in mind --, so you're not even ready to try it yourself. That's the difference between our approaches. I'm open to the matter, you're not, as you've said yourself. It's not so much the subtleness of the expectable/reported effects that calls for blind tests, but the matter itself. Nobody would call for blind tests with headphones -- sonic differences among them are easily explainable.

How about amps and CD players? Like cables, they show more or less identical frequency responses and very low harmonic distortion, but they don't sound the same anyway.

 

[rodbac]

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I see your problem. You think it's physically impossible for cables to cause sonic differences

No, Jazz- it's not ME who thinks it (realistically*) impossible for an adequately designed cable- it's the whole of science.

It's not me who's in the vast, vast minority here, despite what the credulous nature of many here may lead you to believe.

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I don't have the explanation how they would appear in measurings

No offense, but I know you don't have an explanation- because there is none (unless you retreat to something along the lines of "I KNOW WHAT I HEARD!!!" and ignore all scientifically valid explanations for your report)!

* I say "realistically" because it can happen if we were talking about headphone cables that were pushing 10km long or some other such bizarre scenario. I'll preemptively mention, though, that if you think that because there is a difference at 10km, that there could be a smaller, but detectable, difference at 10ft, you're incorrect.

 

[JaZZ]

How about amps and CD players?

 

[Len]

Get a cheap db meter at Radio Shack and play test tones. There is a difference in frequency response from cable to cable, I assure you.

In some gear more then others, cables can make a big difference. For example, if you're using a passive preamp, you better be sure the cables aren't effecting the impedance/capacitance/resistance since anyone with any scientific understanding will tell you it will impact the sound.

I agree that there are only marginal differences between respectably engineered cable of the same conductor material and geometry/design. But if you're telling me a solid core copper cable sounds like a litz braided silver, then I'd argue you have poor auditory accuity.

 

[NeilPeart]

I work at Lockheed Martin and these men of science do believe that cables make a difference. In fact the principle designer of ABL (my current project) is a staunch believer in quality cabling (he designs and builds his own - a PhD in EE from MIT and another in optics helps too). We were comparing (ABX) my HD650/stock to his HD650/Zu Cable and another colleague’s (who is not a cable believer, but he was using the first guy’s spare Cardas) HD650/Cardas and all three of us identified the different cables every time. Our source was my DAC1 and we used the built-in amp. Sometimes the differences were obvious and other times they were very subtle - the recording quality was a large factor. While the differences were obvious the question of improvement is another. I clearly preferred the Zu while conducting the ABX while he and the other guy both preferred the Cardas (no one preferred the stock, as it really sounded a bit grainy up top and the bass was clearly less articulate).

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by NeilPeart I work at Lockheed Martin and these men of science do believe that cables make a difference. In fact the principle designer of ABL (my current project) is a staunch believer in quality cabling (he designs and builds his own). We were comparing (ABX) my HD650/stock to his HD650/Zu Cable and another colleague’s HD650/Cardas and all three of us identified the different cables every time. Our source was my DAC1 and we used the built-in amp.

Thanks for your test, Neil! So I think we can end the discussion now...

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by rodbac ...despite what the credulous nature of many here may lead you to believe.

You're mixing things up. My belief in cable sound is the consequence of my listening experience, not of any ideology or religion -- this in clear contrast to your approach. I've been an unbeliever myself.