[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why read past the first post then - which was a philosophical query as to what is the point of discussions of all different aspects of a hobby vis-a-vis engaging in the hobby itself? The point is pleasure - which is the pont of any human action or personality processing prior to action. Freud described our interests - ranging from avocational and hobby pursuits to strongly addictive compulsions - as libidinal catheixis where libido becomes attached to an object of pleasure. We can thusly fixate on may different things like money, sex, gambling, relationships, hobbies, addictive substances, etc. Learning theory says such avocational pursuits become conditioned - increasingly so the more the pursuit provided pleasure from reward (or escape from aversive conditions, which is also a source of pleasure). We get pleasure from listening to music. Our equipment becomes a conditioned or secondary reinforcer, and this is a source of pleasure that spills over (conditions) from the pleasure of music listening. And then, engaging in discussions about music or equipment becomes a source of pleasure in even a higher order of conditioning. Everything we do is an attempt to obtain pleasure and avoid pain - we are hedonistic to the core. That doesn't mean we don't sacrifice and endure hardships, sometimes to even die to benefit others. But this too is selfish - love of others can be a source of great pleasure and to die for others can be so also. Love is never selfless. Morality, which stems from love is never selfless. Love and morality always have a selfish basis. Sister Theresa got her jollies from helping others, as many people do. The desire to love and help, as well as the desire to destroy and hurt, has a genetic basis - where some are more inclined one way and some the other. So, the answer to the first post, of why we engage in somewhat meaningless and endless disccusssions, is pleasure - it floats our boat.

You have an unshamedly determinist vision of all earthly things eh.

That's what exacerbating reason as the supreme device of understanding fatally produces (for your myth Freud too, but he lived in a different time).

And what with the learned man language... doesn't it serve to conceal a lacking independent understanding...

And btw, earlier we spoke of enjoyment (your final answer we had already answered before) which is a more complex thing than your pleasure, not so frustratingly sensual

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman /img/forum/go_quote.gif ClieOS: One can have a hobby which does not require skill, but instead dedication. Many hobbies require both. Collections require a sincere amount of dedication, and also a lot of knowledge regarding the subject. Sitting on your ass all day requires neither of those things. I'm admitting this, even though I am one of you. I listen to two or three hours of music a day - I don't have a "high fidelity" setup but I've invested a good deal of money on it! I do not fill in my personal voids by saying this is a "hobby". This that we partake in is a pastime. I have real hobbies I indulge in. This is one sad hobby, if you're going to call it that. Unlike what the majority of audiophiles actually are, we'd be one of the lowest members of society by terms of sophistication. The only people that would be lower than us are the hardcore gamers and the perverts.

There's a certain amount of rightness in your arguing; for all the remaining part I think you are just enjoying being cynical in order to let your supposedly higher existential state known. Thus you just sound like a vain human being

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have an unshamedly determinist vision of all earthly things eh. That's what exacerbating reason as the supreme device of understanding fatally produces (for your myth Freud too, but he lived in a different time).

After all it's unsurprising, since we're well aware that "materialism+mysticism" is what the voids of reason inevitably keep returning to. Ah, the wonders of human intellect.

 

[MdRex]

Aman has spoken. The end. Period.

Anyway, I don't get how getting enjoyment out of this hobby is unproductive. Beyond being productive through actually producing work, there's also productiveness in relaxing one's brain in preparation for undertaking more task.

Who's to say what's productive and what's not? The whole concept of making art is just a 'joke' then, we should all go work in the fields, factories etc and what not.

 

[Alu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am as passionate about my headphone rig as I am about my coffee grinder and sewing machine . . . . I have little regard for these objects in-an-of-themselves, but much for the results they produce and enjoyment they yield.

An attitude like that would surely save us from another "Post pictures of your rig" thread.

However what we have to realize is that this isn't a website about music ('cept for the "Music" part of the forums...) as much as it is one about headphones and additional components, and I'm not saying that this is a bad thing.

 

[jamato8]

As a healthcare professional I have to state that if you enjoy this hobby and it brings you pleasure then it is productive. If it relieves stress then you are fighting a big player in the game of heart desease and cancer. Currently there is more and more information on stress from the daily interactions that we exist with and medically this is adding up to a negative. Now if all you do is sit around and you don't get any exercise then I think the positive effect is neutralized but put them together and I believe and evidence backs this up, you have a productive hobby towards a more healthy and longer life. Sounds good to me. :T)

 

[ComfyCan]

There's nothing wrong with questioning the validity or utility of one's beliefs and interests.

It's a good thing....unless of course it breaks through the protective wall of denial carefully constructed to prevent me from recognizing the amount of money I spend on audio toys, or the opportunity cost of spending so much time obsessing over this hobby.

Hmm. On second thought, I don't like self reflection. It's a bad thing.

 

[j-dawg]

Don't be too offended by that Aman guy. His attitude is 10000.999% typical of many many accomplished producers, engineers and top level musicians. I do quite a bit of both engineering and performing myself and I have to run with these guys on a regular basis. Yeah, some of them are super cool and down to earth, but my experience is that a great majority of them are just impossibly snobby and condescending. Go browse some recording/engineering forums and you will see some of the nastiest, ugliest, childish flaming and trolling that you'll ever have the displeasure of reading. I don't even browse them anymore, they're so sophmoric and terribly under-moderated. Seriously these guys should be under a bridge scaring children, not giving out pro-audio "advice", LOL!

None of those guys would ever listen to me, but I would seriously suggest for them to dabble in audiophilia. The intimate dissection of music reproduction at the level you guys do adds such a fantastic dimension to music appreciation. I was surprised to hear Mr. Aman is a jazz cat because I think jazz and orchestra music absolutely demand solid gear to provide any enjoyment, and said enjoyment increases exponentially as you move up the ladder. I don't mind banging some caveman death-metal on a DAP, but if I'm in a jazz or orchestral soundtrack mood it MUST be on minidisc or hi-end PCDP.

So, back on topic, the audiophile HOBBY is no joke. (And of course it's a hobby!?!? pffft... duH?) Oh sure there's silliness and over-analysis just like you'll find anywhere two human beings look at the same thing and try to describe it. It is EXTREMELY complex in the hardware alone: music, media, sources, speakers, interconnects, even without factoring the human perception element. Plenty to discuss until we're all dead and buried. And for the OP to suggest that his beloved hobby is a joke and laugh about it (and others to follow) says great things about the community itself. Head-fi Rawks! Audiophiles Rawk! Peace.

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, somebody as unsuspectingly pompous as yourself would be interested to learn that I'm not a music major. Don't make assumptions, foo'. You're located in NYC? If you have any involvement in the jazz and avant-garde scene down here, then you've probably experienced me and/or my work at some point within the last three to four years. If only you knew who I was... My mentioning that I am actively involved in music was relevant, and I was not at all intending to "secure" some sort of insecurity by stating the fact. Though, when one is faced with an opposition they're unable to defeat, they often try to tackle the opponent with such assertions. I could have mentioned one of my best friends, who is in a similar position as I, or John Zorn, or Ludwig Van Beethoven. It wouldn't have mattered - my point would still be the same. ClieOS: One can have a hobby which does not require skill, but instead dedication. Many hobbies require both. Collections require a sincere amount of dedication, and also a lot of knowledge regarding the subject. Sitting on your ass all day requires neither of those things. I'm admitting this, even though I am one of you. I listen to two or three hours of music a day - I don't have a "high fidelity" setup but I've invested a good deal of money on it! I do not fill in my personal voids by saying this is a "hobby". This that we partake in is a pastime. I have real hobbies I indulge in. This is one sad hobby, if you're going to call it that. Unlike what the majority of audiophiles actually are, we'd be one of the lowest members of society by terms of sophistication. The only people that would be lower than us are the hardcore gamers and the perverts.

I've only been in NYC for 4 weeks. (edited)

If I had more free time I would very much like to get into the jazz scene here. But it looks like I won't be able to since I'm leaving in 2 weeks.

 

[PhilS]

From Webster's New World Dictionary: "Hobby - something that a person likes to do or study in his spare time; favorite pastime or avocation." (Emphasis added.)

I've seen some Arrogant, condescending, imMature, and judgmental posts on this boArd before, but there are a few of them in this thread that really are beyoNd the pale.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're located in NYC? If you have any involvement in the jazz and avant-garde scene down here, then you've probably experienced me and/or my work at some point within the last three to four years. If only you knew who I was...

Marcel Duchamps?

 

[jdimitri]

Is it only me that found Aman's points digestable?
Making film is a hobby, i'm not sure watching tv is
Making sculptures is a hobby, buying them isn't
Therefore, maybe making music is a hobby, listening to it isn't?

I dont know though, the line is blurred

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdimitri /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is it only me that found Aman's points digestable?

Yeah, I found them digestible. They went right through me and came out the other end. And then I saw them for what they were.

Seriously, this is another thread where certain people are redefining words that have an accepted meaning, in order to incorporate into their definition certain questionable value judgments they have made, to account for certain insecurities they seem to have about themselves, or perhaps because they have an axe to grind against some other group of people. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the practice of studying and discussing various headphones and related audio equipment, purchasing and experimenting with the various types of headphones and equipment, and listening to music on the system one assembles is not a "hobby." If one wants to say that it's not a "good" hobby, or that it is useless because it doesn't advance world peace, or that it is not as "productive" in some normative sense as another hobby, I suppose one has the right to say that. (Although Aman's earlier posts are so judgmental on this score that they are hard to take seriously.) But to say the aforementioned activities do not constitute a "hobby" is to not accord the term its usual definition.

Perhaps one might say that the mere act of listening to music in and of itself is not a hobby (although that may be debatable). But I think we are talking about more than that here, and certainly more than just idly sitting around listening to music is involved for most people on this forum who are engaged in this "hobby."

 

[Jokieman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdimitri /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is it only me that found Aman's points digestable? Making film is a hobby, i'm not sure watching tv is Making sculptures is a hobby, buying them isn't Therefore, maybe making music is a hobby, listening to it isn't? I dont know though, the line is blurred

Jdmitri, the line isn't blurred, it doesn't exist. Hobby and Pastime mean the same thing in this instance.

Aman (is that his name? I didn't notice.) tried to complicate matters because he has slapped his own definition onto two words that are essentially the same and believes that we should all live by his definition. I think he needs to spend some time on some English classes instead of the clubs, but that's just me...

And I quoted you because I wanted to point out that creating sculptures can be a profession. So can being a film maker and producing music. Equally, a person who makes it their hobby to learn about artists, sculptures and techniques used in the creation of this art is a hobby or a pastime. (means the same thing). So is being a film buff. So is being a music lover.

yes, the person who sits down and watches T.V. for an hour is not partaking in a hobby, he or she is partaking in relaxation and entertainment. However if that same person enjoys learning more about the stars, the techniques used in filming, etc. Then guess what, it's suddenly become a hobby.

Quote:

Main Entry: pas·time Pronunciation: 'pas-"tIm Function: noun : something that amuses and serves to make time pass agreeably Synonyms: amusement, distraction, diversion, entertainment, fun, game, hobby, leisure, play, rec, recreation, relaxation, sport

No offense to the person who brought it up, but please don't expect us to live by your definition of what Hobby and Pastime are, because it is wrong. hehe.

In my humble opinion, the real question is this:

'Does laying down thousands of dollars on audio equipment make you a lover of music and an audiophile?'

For me, the answer to that question is:

'Hell no, it just means you have a lot of money and this is the way you choose to spend it. Enjoying and loving music is what makes you an Audiophile.'

 

[Brat_Boy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, somebody as unsuspectingly pompous as yourself would be interested to learn that I'm not a music major. Don't make assumptions, foo'. You're located in NYC? If you have any involvement in the jazz and avant-garde scene down here, then you've probably experienced me and/or my work at some point within the last three to four years. If only you knew who I was... My mentioning that I am actively involved in music was relevant, and I was not at all intending to "secure" some sort of insecurity by stating the fact. Though, when one is faced with an opposition they're unable to defeat, they often try to tackle the opponent with such assertions. I could have mentioned one of my best friends, who is in a similar position as I, or John Zorn, or Ludwig Van Beethoven. It wouldn't have mattered - my point would still be the same. ClieOS: One can have a hobby which does not require skill, but instead dedication. Many hobbies require both. Collections require a sincere amount of dedication, and also a lot of knowledge regarding the subject. Sitting on your ass all day requires neither of those things. I'm admitting this, even though I am one of you. I listen to two or three hours of music a day - I don't have a "high fidelity" setup but I've invested a good deal of money on it! I do not fill in my personal voids by saying this is a "hobby". This that we partake in is a pastime. I have real hobbies I indulge in. This is one sad hobby, if you're going to call it that. Unlike what the majority of audiophiles actually are, we'd be one of the lowest members of society by terms of sophistication. The only people that would be lower than us are the hardcore gamers and the perverts.

My god, what are you trying to prove? I mean, why are you even here if you're just going to diss a hobby that everyone on here enjoys and wants nothing more than to discuss? The initial post in this thread didn't even insult the hobby, the OP simply stated that he couldn't see the point of it anymore. Which is understandable, as everyone needs to move onto new things after awhile. I don't consider myself an audiophile, or even a knowledgeable member of this forum as far as this subject goes. But the way you write your rants just makes you sound like you're trying to sound superior. Honestly, could you give a two-column list of hobbies on one side and pastimes on the other? In my opinion, if someone invests enough time and thought into an activity, and bothers to come onto a forum to talk actively about it, it could be considered a hobby. Conventions aren't created for 'pastimes'.