[ravage777]

I haven't been here often enough in the past few years to think that all of this is ridiculous. I am grateful for learning about Sennheiser headphones, but I am also often confused by the amount of headphone bashing here. People seem to love to COMPLETELY overexaggerate how good or bad a headphone is, which really puts me off from going to this site often.

For example, I've been spending the past several days researching to buy a Senn HD-555, and after browsing through the topics, I've seen a varying range of responses from "completely crap" to 50% of HD-595 to 90% of HD-595.

And yes, I agree about the vocabulary some people use here. I often come to this place for headphone reviews or even general interesting discussion. But then, I hear many terms thrown around that seem completely meaningless to me. I've heard dark, bright, warm, cold, round, flat, boring, exciting, in-your-face, distant, grainy, rolled off, pure, natural, neutral... off the top of my head.

 

[OpTicaL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leng jai /img/forum/go_quote.gif After consistently visiting these forums for the past few months, this question has recently crossed my mind. Is all this chat about headphones and sound just an endless cycle of crap that is completely meaningless............

Agreed. The same goes for any hobby. There are many times a hobbyist does not know their hobby has consumed them and has become an obsession/addiction. There are many times I look back at my previous hobbies and go, "god I wasted so much of time and money" but I always think it's the experience and not the destination that matters.

Endless discussion of headphones and amps is like debating whether CBR or VBR mp3 sounds better. In the end people are pinching every marginal miniscule difference they can conjure even if it's coming from their emotions and not their ears.

 

[Ordeith]

I never really considered this to be a hobby, I guess. I consider it in the following manner:

1. I thoroughly enjoy music.
2. The way I enjoy the music experience varies wildly between different setups, so

3. I will do whatever is in my power (be it through my purchasing power or trading, or bumming rides in a friend's car who has a great audio system, whatever) in order to secure the PLEASURE I derive from listening to music.

At the end of the day I'm not looking to "collect" like a stamp collector, I'm looking to create environments for myself that maximize the pleasure I feel in listening to the MUSIC. While aesthetically the components may look snazzy, I find myself often closing my eyes and floating away while I listen to music - letting myself be overwhelmed by memories I associate with the notes, or letting the feel of the music itself influence my mood, whatever.

Why even argue whether "this" is a "hobby" in nature? I see it as a total pursuit of what brings me pleasure. As long as I can afford to increase the pleasure I derive from gear I will, but buying new gear does not necessarily imply the "latest and greatest" bandwagon some people seem to think it does.

If I see someone's sig and note they have spent 100k USD + on their gear I applaud them - more power to them, if that's what makes them happy. (Note I'm too ignorant to recognize such a sig, so that's an example).

In sum: I buy audio gear (or more accurately, am buying audio gear) for the sole purpose of enjoying the music. I buy food because I like to ingest it. Whether or not you like asiago cheese is neither here nor there for me, for example - I'll enjoy consuming it no matter how many times I hear people exclaim "ewwww" whenever they taste it.

If you enjoy X gear because it helps YOU enjoy your musical experience more, great. If stock earbuds are fine for you, that's great too. At the end of the day, I thought this forum was all about putting smiles on peoples' faces, by giving them information (subjective or not) which MAY allow people to enjoy their music more. That's just my take on this forum, though.

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravage777 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't been here often enough in the past few years to think that all of this is ridiculous. I am grateful for learning about Sennheiser headphones, but I am also often confused by the amount of headphone bashing here. People seem to love to COMPLETELY overexaggerate how good or bad a headphone is, which really puts me off from going to this site often. For example, I've been spending the past several days researching to buy a Senn HD-555, and after browsing through the topics, I've seen a varying range of responses from "completely crap" to 50% of HD-595 to 90% of HD-595.

People often have entirely different opinions on things, it doesn't matter how good or bad a headphone is, there's not going to be a complete consensus ever and views can vary greatly.

I'm one of those ones who occasionally takes swipes at the HD555, I genuinely don't like the sound I hear from them in the slightest. It doesn't mean you won't like them, it's up to you to decide based on the information you can obtain. I always think it's best to see both the good and the bad of any headphone, you can't make an informed judgment if all headphones have a five star rating and reviews written only by their fans (like many of the user music reviews on Amazon).

 

[Zanth]

Hey guys, let us try to keep this as civil as possible. Maybe we could put the bottom drawer BS in the top drawer, under lock 'n key?

As for the OP, hey, burn out happens. In fact, I think it is important to continually question. The search for certainty is in the questioning. At some point the ideal is to stop questioning about certain things and start questioning other things. But that is an ideal. So questioning this hobby = good. Slamming folks for being involved or not being involved = bad in my books.

This hobby, mmm this hobby, and I will call it a hobby, I've learned about acoustics, music reproduction technics, technical specs, EE, soldering, DIY. I've been introduced to new forms of music, new artists. I've met new people, both online and in real life. I've formed friendships with folks here that I feel are stronger than most of my "off-line" friendships. I've spent money, I've made money, I've lost money. I've helped others, and I have been helped by so many. My emotions have run the gamut from off the wall excited, to elated, to sublime to irritated, frustrated to downright angry.

If the above does not encompass a hobby, then I don't know what does. I don't think it is a joke at all. Anything that helps me to learn or encourages me to learn is a tool. It is useful. Anything that brings me more joy and relaxation than irritation and frustration is a good thing, a useful tool. Anything that unifies me with great people, and seemingly drawing more and more together, is a good thing. This hobby, this community is no joke.

However, the act of perpetual upgrading...maybe that can be classified as a sickness

We don't offer condolensces upon arrival for nothing. It sure ain't for the wallet, we just make it out to sound that way

I like it here. I like how headphones and audiophilia in general encourages me to investigate my music more. How it has guided me into new avenues of the art of music making, taking me down paths I never thought I would venture. Hip hop? Country? Heck Bluegrass? Yep, I've tried them all now and I even like some choice cuts here and there. Fantastic. I won't deem this exclusive or unique to this hobby, but certainly without it I may have been missing out. No!, I know I would have been.

Now then, falling victim to the hurd mentality...well, maybe once, but multiple times? Maybe some introspection is required, but that is on an individual basis. Many don't do the buy and sell when something bigger and better, the uberest newest bestest thing is created, you know, since last week! Heck...since yesterday! Of course, folks that do this have other issues, and this would be evident in any hobby. OCness will be be apparent no matter what the hobby. Other mental quirks will as well.

Am I disappointed I've spent as much money as I have? No. If not here than where? I can think of many ways I could have spent my money. Anything beyond philanthropic outfits would have either meant into other hobbies and/or other possessions. If one urges charity, well what if I came back and claimed that my super enjoyment of music through my system invigorated me! granted me the energy to work harder and make more money, money that I do donate...but would otherwise not have been there. Hmmm, circular perhaps, impossible to verify...and in the end...who cares? We do what we do. There is no joke here provided no one is getting hurt, no one is getting screwed and everyone is having fun.

Sometimes folks do get hurt, screwed and sometimes this place isn't fun. As a community we try to limit that. As folks engrossed in a hobby, we need happy people for it to flourish and for the most part, people are stand-up. When this is not the case, it is a reflection of real-life, you know that reality that creeps into all things? Even hobbies...those areas we delve into to sometimes escape real-life, if not elevate it to a new plateau.

I laugh a lot with this hobby. I smile a lot while listening to me gear. But a joke it is not, at least not to me.

 

[drarthurwells]

Posted by drarthurwells:
Why read past the first post then - which was a philosophical query as to what is the point of discussions of all different aspects of a hobby vis-a-vis engaging in the hobby itself?

The point is pleasure - which is the pont of any human action or personality processing prior to action.

Freud described our interests - ranging from avocational and hobby pursuits to strongly addictive compulsions - as libidinal catheixis where libido becomes attached to an object of pleasure. We can thusly fixate on may different things like money, sex, gambling, relationships, hobbies, addictive substances, etc.

Learning theory says such avocational pursuits become conditioned - increasingly so the more the pursuit provided pleasure from reward (or escape from aversive conditions, which is also a source of pleasure).

We get pleasure from listening to music. Our equipment becomes a conditioned or secondary reinforcer, and this is a source of pleasure that spills over (conditions) from the pleasure of music listening. And then, engaging in discussions about music or equipment becomes a source of pleasure in even a higher order of conditioning.

Everything we do is an attempt to obtain pleasure and avoid pain - we are hedonistic to the core.

That doesn't mean we don't sacrifice and endure hardships, sometimes to even die to benefit others. But this too is selfish - love of others can be a source of great pleasure and to die for others can be so also.

Love is never selfless. Morality, which stems from love is never selfless. Love and morality always have a selfish basis. Sister Theresa got her jollies from helping others, as many people do. The desire to love and help, as well as the desire to destroy and hurt, has a genetic basis - where some are more inclined one way and some the other.

So, the answer to the first post, of why we engage in somewhat meaningless and endless disccusssions, is pleasure - it floats our boat.

Andrea: You have an unshamedly determinist vision of all earthly things eh.

That's what exacerbating reason as the supreme device of understanding fatally produces (for your myth Freud too, but he lived in a different time)

Art: To deny a detemined universe is to deny causality. To deny causality is to deny influence of prior events in producing current events (or the future's influence on the present at a quantum level - yes the future can cause the present). To deny causality is to assert that something can somehow emerge from nothing - can create itself.

So, do you think something can come from nothing - can create itself?


Andrea: And what with the learned man language... doesn't it serve to conceal a lacking independent understanding...

Art: Yes language and conceptual (logico-mathematical) thought can over-rule and conceal inductive intuition. It is through inductive intuition (non-verbal perceptual processing) that we gain understanding, but this must be formulated in language to be understood and communicated.

Andrea: And btw, earlier we spoke of enjoyment (your final answer we had already answered before) which is a more complex thing than your pleasure, not so frustratingly sensual

Art: We seek neuronal pleasure release at an unconsious level, and most all of the time we have no feeling experience of this, while at other times it does manifest as joy, contentment, or an extreme high, etc. We seek it constsntly whether we feel anything or not - it guides our experience and behavior in step by step fashion from one microsecond to the other.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Art: To deny a detemined universe is to deny causality. To deny causality is to deny influence of prior events in producing current events (or the future's influence on the present at a quantum level - yes the future can cause the present). To deny causality is to assert that something can somehow emerge from nothing - can create itself.

Merovingian, can we please stay on topic? I reject the SA5K's are the one.

Your rejection of existentialism is well noted as well as your fervent belief in a God (drarthurwells is walking straight into a religious argument).

Moving on...

First of all, listening to music is not an audiophile in the traditional sense. I do not believe an audiophile is a person who just sits and listens to music. In colloquial terms, that's a music lover. However, I believe all audiophile's are by definition music lovers. There pursuit of accurate reproduction of music is to further their love of music (here, drarthurwells pleasure principle applies).

Film students/buffs do not just watch movies but they understand the hidden meanings and messages left by the director as well as the difficulty of actually making the film. Art historians do not just look at a painting subjectively, but understand the context in which the painting was created and how the influences and schools of thought of those times helped stimulate the artist to create a masterpiece. Wine buffs do not just drink wine but also understand the process of how wine is created, how the various grapes are blended, why terroir is so important and how certain varietals effect the pallet.

All of the above are all passions, hobbies, and professions which do not attempt to create their subject (film, art, and wine).

Aman's point is just dumb. I agree that its an arrogant and snobbish attitude in that it perpetuates this myth that if you create music you have some sort of deeper love for it than someone who listens to it or even conducts it.

Finally, on a more professional level, any artist worth a damn is an audiophile or keeps a very good one on staff. Its well understood that the process of recording and mastering audio causes some percentage of the original sound to be lost. As an audiophile, my whole pursuit is to retain as many of those percentage points as possible! Even live performances require major adjustments to the speakers, sound levels, acoustics in the room, etc. The idea that you just perform in a live setting and you'll sound good if you are good is SO very wrong.

 

[niknik]

I think it's a joke

I laugh alot of myself -the time AND money I spend

I (sometimes) smile when I listen to good music

And I'm happy to see when others are having a good experience (although most people are scared of putting the ETY's all the way in there

)

All in all a pretty good joke as far as I'm concerned

 

[Coltrane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor /img/forum/go_quote.gif The idea that you just perform in a live setting and you'll sound good if you are good is SO very wrong.

As long as you can hear the notes clearly, and the notes are good ones, you'll sound good. Most musicians are nowhere near audiophiles. They are more interested in playing the right notes, than getting notes to sound right. Charlie Parker on a plastic saxophone poorly recorded will sound better than any other saxophonist in any other situation, even a million dollar sax through a million dollar system. I think a huge problem with alot of audiophiles is that they are more concerned about getting notes to sound perfect, they arent that concerned with the music. Many are, but many aren't.

I, personally, find the term hobby insulting. Of course, I don't consider myself involved in the headphone game at all. Headphones are simply part of the music, and the music is a way of life. Calling it a hobby puts it in the same category as needlework, or video games, or building cars. If you think music is the same as these hobbies, thats fine, call it a hobby. I think music is WAAAAAAAAAY different.

 

[HiWire]

I think that head-fi is a hobby.

If you spend time doing DIY projects, travelling to meets/manufacturers, and write coherently about the hobby, it's legitimate in my opinion. People who spend time and effort writing about new music that they've heard, articles that they've read and debate, and tweaks that they've tried, etc. are not just sitting there listening to the music.

The mind is an active organ when it's put to good use.

The amount of time many of us spend here is both enjoyable (mostly) and educational - I wouldn't come back regularly if I didn't think it was somehow worthwhile.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Charlie Parker on a plastic saxophone poorly recorded will sound better than any other saxophonist in any other situation, even a million dollar sax through a million dollar system.

Man are you so wrong....

A great example is a family member (and teacher) was first clarinetist of the Met and he had a very famous colleague who went up to do his solo performance on a Friday night and bombed miserably. Why? His clarinet had a faulty reed and mouthpiece.

Part of great performance is also the instruments used and the acoustics of the recording. There is a reason why Miles Davis spent so much time in the studio and why Glenn Gould took take after take to record the Variations.

The performer may not be the audiophile but any recording session worth a damn has one on staff. Period.

Btw, I think we lost some of Parker's magic because of the limitations of recording music in his era. Make no mistake about it.

 

[Jahn]

charlie parker live massey hall with a pawnshop plastic sax sounds a million times better than kenny G in his finest grammy moment. 'nuff said. that said, the Bird with a primo Selmer blasting in an intimate club live would have DESTROYED that cheesy massey hall recording.

 

[smeggy]

Hobby? Endless cycles of crap? You betcha!

Who cares as long as we're happy in our crap and hobbies. I love music, I love toys. It's a match made in heaven.

As long as we stay within comfortable bounds and recognise what we each consider to be the, erm, shall we say more extreme viewpoints on certain aspects of our hobby then all is good. I'm not out to extract every last ounce of detail, my needs are much more basic. I like certain sound types that excite me irrespective of detail, frequency response, sounstage or what bits of wire ties it all together. Heresy I know.

Frankly I really don't give a rats ass about most areas many consider important around here which is why my fave stuff is mainly cheaper and geared towards me having fun and not being a slave to obsession. Oops, I mean 'critical listener'. I figured out long ago that you don't need to be a gazillionair to enjoy this hobby.. or accept all the cycling crap.

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Art: To deny a detemined universe is to deny causality. To deny causality is to deny influence of prior events in producing current events (or the future's influence on the present at a quantum level - yes the future can cause the present). To deny causality is to assert that something can somehow emerge from nothing - can create itself. So, do you think something can come from nothing - can create itself?

I didn't deny anything! I merely hinted at the intuitive evidence that to pretend to grasp the universe by means of a mechanicist succession of empirical cause-effect (*) is pure logos-enthusiastic self-delusion. Such a thing ultimately is nothing else than halving man's understanding (by halving, at best, man's ancestral faculties). Man you sound so sure of the perfection of your own inductive science.

(*) leaving all that's left unknown to religious opinion, 'course

 

[Audiofiler]

this hobby is a lifelong journey of sound