[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then how does one operationalize detail ? If it is not an accurate rendering of the frequencies and intensities in the recording I am not quite sure what else it could be ? Sorry I will have to ask you to explain this. A cable has a certain frequency response that is measurable and as far as I am aware under a given set of circumstances quite consistent. Unless there is bizarre impedance matching issues with the amp (such as some NAIMs) the behavior will be consistent.

What I wrote before, in the very same post: Possibly what's needed is a measurement of frequency of frequency changes when different cables are plugged in, with the same music.

What you wrote about previously was changes in frequency, ie: EQ changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif But what does more or less detailed mean ?. It just seems like a vague statement that cannot be the same for any two persons. If you say cable A is more detailed than cable B but somebody else with equivalent hearing and experience says the opposite is true then where does that leave us ? PS what cables do you use ?

I think we all know what detail is. A synonym is clarity. You've been dealing with audio for 30 years. I'm guessing either you want to play the devil's advocate or you think we're all wrong.

One of the pieces of music I use for testing gear ends with a piano solo. I listen for the decay of the notes on the strings in the piano, and to how readily I can hear the subtle shifts of tone as the vibration in the strings dissipate and pass between each other.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay, so it allows you to hear low level details that other cables might obscure through noise or attenuation.

Yep

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we all know what detail is. A synonym is clarity. You've been dealing with audio for 30 years. I'm guessing either you want to play the devil's advocate or you think we're all wrong.

As I grow (much) older I develop a respect for language. I have seen the word detail used as a synonym for bright. These days a graph or a set of numbers communicates much more unambiguously for me.

Latterly I find Audiophile language too much of a linguistic moving feast...

 

[powertoold]

I'm sure many people in the past have made bold claims about cables. Unfortunately, none of them was able to pass an ABX test.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertoold /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sure many people in the past have made bold claims about cables. Unfortunately, none of them was able to pass an ABX test.

Tell us about your system and your cable experience.

 

[powertoold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tell us about your system and your cable experience.

Would you mind explaining how experience matters in this debate?

The people who have made bold claims about cables have probably had more "experience" with cables than most audiophiles, yet I have never read about any that could consistently distinguish between cheap Radio Shack cables and more expensive ones.

Even if I had experience with many different cables, I would not trust my aural perception. Audio is not the same as video, where you can simply pause a scene and compare the picture quality of two TVs. Your aural perception is very tricky, and if you believe everything you think you hear, your impressions may be wrong unless properly tested.

Also, olblueyez, why do you think no one has been able to produce a significant result with regards to cable differences? Do you think you'd be able to?

 

[olblueyez]

See next post.

 

[Maxvla]

Careful guys, lets vote on the poll and keep the opinions in check. I don't believe in cables making a difference once you get a quality inexpensive cable, but I can also appreciate the opinions of those who discuss the differences in cables.

The mods/admin made a rule about no DBT discussion mostly because of flame wars from cable disputes so lets just agree to disagree.

 

[olblueyez]

Did it ever occur to the disbeleivers that there is one type of person absent from these cable debates? Why is it that we never seem to hear from someone who says "I bought some expensive IC's and they sounded the same as my cheap cables"? If you guys are correct dont you think that you would hear something like this from at least one person? Think you can find a test to explain that? Must mean that everyone who buys a nice cable is affected by placebo.

 

[KevM2]

Why is it automatically placebo when we talk about cables, especially when one can do an AB test due to having several cables in front of him, but it's perfectly fine to trust one's perceptions when it comes to ABing amps? Obviously an amp can make a more noticeable difference, but the principle should hold the same across the board if it's going to be applied. How is it possible to trust your audio perception in the case of amps, op-amp mods and tubes, but not the case of cables?

I bet if you did an experiment of testing people's abilities to tell tubes apart, a lot of people would get tubes wrong as well, but it's commonly accepted that tubes change sound.

The bottom line is if you want to see if it makes a difference is to TRY IT yourself. As has been constantly said, there are companies who will refund your money if you feel you aren't getting value or even if you ask around, you might be able to audition a cable free of charge.

Only after trying it yourself will you be able to truly say that they make a difference or not. if it doesn't, return the product and get your money back or return your audition cable and you can sit back knowing that that's one component of your system that youa re satisfied with.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did it ever occur to the disbeleivers that there is one type of person absent from these cable debates? Why is it that we never seem to hear from someone who says "I bought some expensive IC's and they sounded the same as my cheap cables"? If you guys are correct dont you think that you would hear something like this from at least one person? Think you can find a test to explain that? Must mean that everyone who buys a nice cable is affected by placebo.

The guy which you ignored was one...

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevM2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why is it automatically placebo when we talk about cables, especially when one can do an AB test due to having several cables in front of him, but it's perfectly fine to trust one's perceptions when it comes to ABing amps? Obviously an amp can make a more noticeable difference, but the principle should hold the same across the board if it's going to be applied. How is it possible to trust your audio perception in the case of amps, op-amp mods and tubes, but not the case of cables? I bet if you did an experiment of testing people's abilities to tell tubes apart, a lot of people would get tubes wrong as well, but it's commonly accepted that tubes change sound. The bottom line is if you want to see if it makes a difference is to TRY IT yourself. As has been constantly said, there are companies who will refund your money if you feel you aren't getting value or even if you ask around, you might be able to audition a cable free of charge. Only after trying it yourself will you be able to truly say that they make a difference or not. if it doesn't, return the product and get your money back or return your audition cable and you can sit back knowing that that's one component of your system that youa re satisfied with.

Your right, people will have a hard time with short term testing like that. I have swapped tubes in that way and all it ever does is to confuse me. But the Tubes do change the sound. Tubes can change the sound 100 percent. I still think its automatic because cables changing SQ is hard for people to accept. Short term testing will only hinder your descision making process people. Sure you can tell the difference between a clock radio and a Linn stack but when your dealing with a multitude of good midline stuff it gets very very hard to distinguish one peice of equipment to another. The thing is, just because it took you a week to discover an improvement doesnt mean it is not an important discovery, all improvements are important when your spending thousands on headphone equipment.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif The guy which you ignored was one...

Again, very interesting idea. I've done something much simpler myself. Here in Italy (at least in my town, although in the web shops too), the sennheiser is the most famous headphone manufacture. Because of that, before joining the head-fi i practically tried almost all famous/important models since they was easy to find, and many of my friends have them. So, when i joined head-fi and started seeing all the people talking about cables i was really interested. In the mean time, i was finishing my Electronic/Computer technician school and had some "basic" knowledge about components, current, cables and such. So i wanted to test if i can hear the difference and is the notice worth the relatively high cost. All the stuff i learned was telling me it was practically impossible thing to do, but non the less, i wanted to try.

How to do it? Well, blind testing would be useless since i was expecting rather subtle difference only noticeable in long terms. But, based on my crazy logic, if i compare the worst cable i can find (then soldering it to HD650 stock plugs since they guy didn't needed the stock cable anymore) to a Cardas HD650 cable Why solder used tips on a 650 Cardas cable??? that my friend had for last two years (the one from headroom), i should notice at least something since the difference in price is 300 times in favor of Cardas. Well, i didn't notice anything How Long did he listen? then. Couple of weeks ago i tried it again. Again, how long? I've train my ears quite much in the mean time since i went from thinking C751 is the best earphone in existence especially for the price, to noticing that there's not enough detail, highs and previously incredibly good bass for an iem could actually be better and allot of other things. Along with that i got my first amp (x-can v8) that is actually better than the one my friend has (x-can v2 modified), i tried really hard this time, and spend couple of days testing 2 days??? How long were the last two sessions? with various music. Result: nothing.

Now we all know everything is possible: I've read on many places on the net that 1db difference is not noticeable, yet i can notice it. Same thing with lossy against lossless, and i said on another thread i actually prefer standard encoding to VBR. ???? He prefers Compressed??? So there might be some people who can actually benefit with better cabling and that's fine. I don't understand however, how some of them like that guy who put me on ignore list thinks that if someone can't he's deaf. It's totally opposite; if someone can, it's a rarity, I thought his ears were highly trained??? and an extreme one. I've tried and i can't. On the bright side, now i can spend more money on (for me) more useful stuff in this awesome hobby. Just my opinion based on my experience, nothing more.

What was the source?

Maza, are you sure this is the example you want to use? He states short term testing is useless then proceeds to use short term testing. With a Cardas 650 cable that apparently needed to have tips that were cut off a stock cable and soldered to the 650 cable that should have the proper tips already. WTH??????

Your Troll radar needs to go in for service.

__________________

 

[KevM2]

Oh yeah, I definitely believe that tubes can change sound. I was just curious why it's acceptable to deliver AB impressions for tubes and amps, but our hearing becomes impaired and a placebo effect takes place when it comes to cabling.

Honestly, I think a lot of people don't want to feel like they're missing out and saying you have to buy this $300 cable to get the most out of your system has people somewhat wary. But my message is, you don't HAVE to upgrade the cables if you don't want to. Feel free to upgrade your amp or source instead. My concern just comes from those who think we're lying when we say that cables can bring a relatively significant change to the sound.

In regards to this topic, I must make one statement. Ultimately, degrees of change is relative. For example, if you sit back and listen and feel you want more of some specific element from your sound system, when you buy an upgrade that delivers that, you'll say the sound change is huge. Now someone who wasn't looking for that particular element in sound will say that the sound change wasn't that big or there really wasn't a difference at all. I'll call it the thirsty audio effect. Someone who hasn't drank any water in days will find a glass of water the best thing in the world. Someone who has more than enough to drink won't particularly be excited by a glass of water. Same with audio. If I want more refined bass out of the music, buying a cable that is more bass oriented than the one I am using will be a sizeable upgrade for me. Not so for someone else.

With the HD600, EF1 amp and Equinox cable (copper based) I was looking for a somewhat leaner sound to my system and some more treble detail, since I had a pretty heavy sounding system. So, with the Excaliber interconnects, which is silver based, I found the addition of some speed and treble detail just what I was looking for. Therefore, I felt the improvement a sizeable and worthy one.

Someone who isn't really thoroughly delving in into the details of the music as I am, or are searching for a different element of sound than I am won't feel that the upgrade was all that huge.

olblueyez, I believe you have a Raptor, which I hear is a pretty fast and lean amp, so I can understand why you would go with copper instead of silver, since you'd probably want more body to your sound.

When it comes down to it, the only real way to find out if something does or doesn't work as touted is experimentation.

 

[olblueyez]

Looks like the majority of people are hearing things that don't really exist.