Do Interconnects Impact SQ in an Audio Chain?
Jan 20, 2009 at 4:32 AM Post #151 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So far no solid suggestions someone mentioned Audioquest Jade ($30) but that does not appear to be a current model...and it has to have a reccomendation from someone who has compared it against a stock cable.


Choose the best Audioquest cable you can afford and then compare to the cheapest Radio-shack cable they sell. I have the Audioquest King Cobra, love them. I usually recommend copper as copper sounds natural, silver doesn't sound so good to me. BTW, if price is an issue then how bout a coax copper model from BlueJeansCables. People claim they are nice and the prices are very reasonable. Whatever it is I would make sure it is shielded because if it isn't then its likely to pick up some noise from neighboring components. Even if you donr beleive in diferent cable types then surely you do beleive EMI and RF can damage a signal, right?
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM Post #152 of 211
An interesting thread.

I'm relatively new to this discussion board and also relatively new to head-fi'ing.

My music collection was originally made up mp3's - 256Kbit and some with even lower bit rates. I was happy with this. I really couldn't hear the difference between lossless and compressed versions with the equipment I used, i.e., my car stereo, rather cheap headphones, and my computer connected to a BOSE wave radio as well as external computer speakers (not cheap really - $350 pair).

Since discovering the world of headphones and that I could listen without disturbing my wife and kids, I decided to upgrade my listening.

I first bought a pair of Sony MDR 7506. They sounded great. A convincing start.

After a month or so, I then moved to the Sennheiser HD 595 and also felt it deserved a dedicated headphone amp. I settled with a Firestone Fubar III with external Power Supply Unit. For the first time folks, I could easily hear the difference between 256 Kbit/sec and lossless formats. For some recordings, it would be subtle but discernible. For others, it would be quite striking. I found it most marked with music featuring specialist vocalists, for example, Barbra Streisand or Celine Dione. My feeling when I heard this was, 'I thought I'd never really hear this difference, but golly gee, this is what the fuss is about.' I could also easily tell when a recording was very good as opposed to another recording being genuinely bad.

I then upgraded to the Sennheiser HD 650. This has been the most profound upgrade for me so far. I was astonished!!! The first thing I did when I first heard the HD 650's was to disable my iTunes equalizer. The HD 650's now sounded right. For the FIRST time, to my listening ear, the iTunes equalizer distorted the sound (something I kept hearing and could never appreciate). This was an immediate impression for me and the decision to disable the equalizer took a single A/B test. That one had me shaking my head with disbelief.

I then upgraded the amp and DAC to a FireStone SpitFire and HeadPhone MicroAmp - again, gains in sound clarity, sound separation and staging.

Why all the build up? ---- Equipment quality allows you to hear things that lesser equipment will not allow. Plain and simple. This is why experience helps and why I greatly respect experience rather than talking out of one's you know where.

Now, for the cabling. I decided to upgrade to the Cardas Cable. To be frank, I was disappointed. There was a difference, but way too subtle for the investment. I was also not sure that it actually improved my listening. I suspiciously eyed the Grado 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor that I had to be using with the cable. The adaptor had a short, 6", length of cable. I was suspicious that the adaptor could be affecting the sound.

I reached for the Sennheiser adaptor which is identical in configuration and switched them around. My jaw dropped... well I'll be damned. It did make a difference. The Grado gave more base, boomy in nature, and more colour to the mids. I didn't really like the effect. I preferred the sound over the stock adaptor provided by Sennheiser. I now knew that the adaptor was making a difference. I then obtained the Cardas adaptor and I like it more than the other two. I doubt that I'm being biased. I'm a skeptic and experimenter. I have no desire to be hearing a difference and would have been willing to go the route of getting an amp with a 1/4" socket.

So my experience has shown me that equipment matters where hearing differences are concerned.

Additionally, training your ears is very important. Blind individuals hear better than those who aren't. If they can't see, their other senses are more heavily used, i.e., touch, smell and hearing. Their other senses become more developed with increased acuity and discriminatory ability. Audiophiles, over time and with effort, will increase their ability to discriminate between sounds.

Finally, in my experience, more than subtle differences with changes of equipment and cabling are heavily dependent on the recording type, quality, sound volume etc. This is why differences are not fully appreciated through simple A/B tests, but through prolonged listening. When you initially hear a difference, that's only the start of the overall assessment of just how different the sound is and whether or not it's in a positive or negative direction where your sound preference is concerned.

Cables can never have a neutral influence. I have no doubts now that it's audible to most human ears with training one's hearing and investing in equipment that's up to showing up the difference. It's therefore not at all surprising that those who are willing to invest the money to seriously upgrade their equipment, will in turn, invest the time and attention to seriously listen to the sound coming from their precious equipment. This very significant, but worthwhile investment will not only make them able to discern differences as a result of the sheer quality of the equipment at their disposal, but also, their improved ability to hear discriminately.

Without actually taking a small trip down that road, I'd never have been personally convinced. I was hoping there wouldn't be a difference since there would be no justification for spending thousands on equipment, but unfortunately it does.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 4:45 AM Post #153 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
An interesting thread.

I'm relatively new to this discussion board and also relatively new to head-fi'ing.

My music collection was originally made up mp3's - 256Kbit and some with even lower bit rates. I was happy with this. I really couldn't hear the difference between lossless and compressed versions with the equipment I used, i.e., my car stereo, rather cheap headphones, and my computer connected to a BOSE wave radio as well as external computer speakers (not cheap really - $350 pair).

Since discovering the world of headphones and that I could listen without disturbing my wife and kids, I decided to upgrade my listening.

I first bought a pair of Sony MDR 7506. They sounded great. A convincing start.

After a month or so, I then moved to the Sennheiser HD 595 and also felt it deserved a dedicated headphone amp. I settled with a Firestone Fubar III with external Power Supply Unit. For the first time folks, I could easily hear the difference between 256 Kbit/sec and lossless formats. For some recordings, it would be subtle but discernible. For others, it would be quite striking. I found it most marked with music featuring specialist vocalists, for example, Barbra Streisand or Celine Dione. My feeling when I heard this was, 'I thought I'd never really hear this difference, but golly gee, this is what the fuss is about.' I could also easily tell when a recording was very good as opposed to another recording being genuinely bad.

I then upgraded to the Sennheiser HD 650. This has been the most profound upgrade for me so far. I was astonished!!! The first thing I did when I first heard the HD 650's was to disable my iTunes equalizer. The HD 650's now sounded right. For the FIRST time, to my listening ear, the iTunes equalizer distorted the sound (something I kept hearing and could never appreciate). This was an immediate impression for me and the decision to disable the equalizer took a single A/B test. That one had me shaking my head with disbelief.

I then upgraded the amp and DAC to a FireStone SpitFire and HeadPhone MicroAmp - again, gains in sound clarity, sound separation and staging.

Why all the build up? ---- Equipment quality allows you to hear things that lesser equipment will not allow. Plain and simple. This is why experience helps and why I greatly respect experience rather than talking out of one's you know where.

Now, for the cabling. I decided to upgrade to the Cardas Cable. To be frank, I was disappointed. There was a difference, but way too subtle for the investment. I was also not sure that it actually improved my listening. I suspiciously eyed the Grado 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor that I had to be using with the cable. The adaptor had a short, 6", length of cable. I was suspicious that the adaptor could be affecting the sound.

I reached for the Sennheiser adaptor which is identical in configuration and switched them around. My jaw dropped... well I'll be damned. It did make a difference. The Grado gave more base, boomy in nature, and more colour to the mids. I didn't really like the effect. I preferred the sound over the stock adaptor provided by Sennheiser. I now knew that the adaptor was making a difference. I then obtained the Cardas adaptor and I like it more than the other two. I doubt that I'm being biased. I'm a skeptic and experimenter. I have no desire to be hearing a difference and would have been willing to go the route of getting an amp with a 1/4" socket.

So my experience has shown me that equipment matters where hearing differences are concerned.

Additionally, training your ears is very important. Blind individuals hear better than those who aren't. If they can't see, their other senses are more heavily used, i.e., touch, smell and hearing. Their other senses become more developed with increased acuity and discriminatory ability. Audiophiles, over time and with effort, will increase their ability to discriminate between sounds.

Finally, in my experience, more than subtle differences with changes of equipment and cabling are heavily dependent on the recording type, quality, sound volume etc. This is why differences are not fully appreciated through simple A/B tests, but through prolonged listening. When you initially hear a difference, that's only the start of the overall assessment of just how different the sound is and whether or not it's in a positive or negative direction where your sound preference is concerned.

Cables can never have a neutral influence. I have no doubts now that it's audible to most human ears with training one's hearing and investing in equipment that's up to showing up the difference. It's therefore not at all surprising that those who are willing to invest the money to seriously upgrade their equipment, will in turn, invest the time and attention to seriously listen to the sound coming from their precious equipment. This very significant, but worthwhile investment will not only make them able to discern differences as a result of the sheer quality of the equipment at their disposal, but also, their improved ability to hear discriminately.

Without actually taking a small trip down that road, I'd never have been personally convinced. I was hoping there wouldn't be a difference since there would be no justification for spending thousands on equipment, but unfortunately it does.



Their own time to tell other people of this great discovery. Its kinda sad really, buying amps and headphones over and over when all you need is to roll some tubes and experiment with cables.
smile.gif
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 5:35 AM Post #154 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Choose the best Audioquest cable you can afford and then compare to the cheapest Radio-shack cable they sell. I have the Audioquest King Cobra, love them. I usually recommend copper as copper sounds natural, silver doesn't sound so good to me. BTW, if price is an issue then how bout a coax copper model from BlueJeansCables. People claim they are nice and the prices are very reasonable. Whatever it is I would make sure it is shielded because if it isn't then its likely to pick up some noise from neighboring components. Even if you donr beleive in diferent cable types then surely you do beleive EMI and RF can damage a signal, right?


I have ordered a pair of Sidewinder and a pair of G-Snake. Plus a pair of BJC cable , all 1m. It may be some time before I report back on this.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 5:51 AM Post #155 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have ordered a pair of Sidewinder and a pair of G-Snake. Plus a pair of BJC cable , all 1m. It may be some time before I report back on this.


It should take some time, if it doesnt then something is screwy.
biggrin.gif


Should I send you these are do you have a set?
bs039yj8.jpg


Notice some of the cables you ordered are directional, the model I have has a separate drain wire but they must have used a different approach on the G-snake and Sidewinder. I dont think the BJC is directional, just a good amount of shielding.

"The conductor under the shield does double duty as a low distortion audio connection, and as the drain wire connecting the shield to ground".

Im pumped up, cant wait to see what you think.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 10:59 AM Post #157 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Their own time to tell other people of this great discovery. Its kinda sad really, buying amps and headphones over and over when all you need is to roll some tubes and experiment with cables.
smile.gif



IMO, this only seems to make sense once your equipment goes beyond a certain minimum standard or determined by your budget, whichever one comes first. At that point, a cable change can lead to just as much difference as changing the amp. Each headphone has its characteristic signature, and while a cable change may adjust the sound, a headphone change is more likely to produce a marked difference in sound character.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 3:01 PM Post #158 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
IMO, this only seems to make sense once your equipment goes beyond a certain minimum standard or determined by your budget, whichever one comes first. At that point, a cable change can lead to just as much difference as changing the amp. Each headphone has its characteristic signature, and while a cable change may adjust the sound, a headphone change is more likely to produce a marked difference in sound character.


I think this is the crux of the issue: Speakers (and headphones) have obvious and easily measurable sonic characteristics. Cables, while measurably electrically different, have sonic characteristics that are difficult to measure in a way that meaningfully relates to what we hear.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 3:11 PM Post #159 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think this is the crux of the issue: Speakers (and headphones) have obvious and easily measurable sonic characteristics. Cables, while measurably electrically different, have sonic characteristics that are difficult to measure in a way that meaningfully relates to what we hear.


It's not all the time that you switch cables that you'll find it easy to discern a difference. This may be because of the cable design and materials used for conduction, not being much different from the one you were previously used; it could be that your equipment isn't sensitive enough to show up the difference; it could be that the type of music, the format, quality of recording, or a combination of these, do not allow you to hear it; and finally, if your ears have been trained and are up to discerning it.

IOW's, it's a hit and miss, and it takes effort, as well as direct experience to appreciate this. If you're skeptic, or worse, cannot afford to make the effort for whatever reason (no time... no money... no time or money), it's better to just deny that they do make a difference that's discernible to human hearing in a meaningful way.

I've read posts on these boards of claims that fancy dedicated DACs and Amps don't make a difference and that it's the ego playing tricks on the listener. The cable issue is identical but takes it to another level that's outrageous to conceive for some, but real for others. I've been on both sides and I now know.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 4:13 PM Post #160 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It should take some time, if it doesnt then something is screwy.
biggrin.gif


Should I send you these are do you have a set?
bs039yj8.jpg



No thanks I have plenty of those.


Quote:

Notice some of the cables you ordered are directional


Indeed, I aim to test this directionality. I am curious as to how an AC carrying cable can work properly if it is directional ?, but I will reserve judgment for now.

Quote:

Im pumped up, cant wait to see what you think.


This will be a while, but I will start a new thread.

Finally I am about to receive a credit card refund which will give me approximately $35 which could be used for one last cable, would a Canare LV-61S cable be better than a stock cable ?
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 8:12 PM Post #162 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No thanks I have plenty of those.




Indeed, I aim to test this directionality. I am curious as to how an AC carrying cable can work properly if it is directional ?, but I will reserve judgment for now.



This will be a while, but I will start a new thread.

Finally I am about to receive a credit card refund which will give me approximately $35 which could be used for one last cable, would a Canare LV-61S cable be better than a stock cable ?



Its designed to draw RF and EMI away from your amp, the king cobra has a separate drain wire connected to only one end, that end goes on the source.

As for cable choices I think you have enough, I would have combined my money for a single higher end cable but what you have should work nicer than the Rat-Shack cable pictured. I was looking at the cables you picked out and apparently people who bought them from Amazon and wrote in to review the cables seemed to like them and hear a difference.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 8:23 PM Post #163 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif
As for cable choices I think you have enough, I would have combined my money for a single higher end cable but what you have should work nicer than the Rat-Shack cable pictured. I was looking at the cables you picked out and apparently people who bought them from Amazon and wrote in to review the cables seemed to like them and hear a difference.


I considered some higher end Audoquests I found on eBay, but I know that there are a lot of Audioquest knock-offs on eBay and the prices were so much lower than retail that I did not want to risk it.
 
Jan 20, 2009 at 8:41 PM Post #164 of 211
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I considered some higher end Audoquests I found on eBay, but I know that there are a lot of Audioquest knock-offs on eBay and the prices were so much lower than retail that I did not want to risk it.


Its ok, you have shielded solid core copper cables as apposed to the non shielded stranded copper Rat-shack, I think that should work.
wink.gif
 
Jan 21, 2009 at 1:54 AM Post #165 of 211
People claiming to be skeptics and experimenters should understand that differences will be "heard" even when they don't exist. This fact invalidates all your conclusions unless you were properly tested, and with cables, there's no way to do the test on yourself.
 

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