[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by powertoold /img/forum/go_quote.gif People claiming to be skeptics and experimenters should understand that differences will be "heard" even when they don't exist. This fact invalidates all your conclusions unless you were properly tested, and with cables, there's no way to do the test on yourself.

Differences will be heard when they don't exist.

Differences will also not be heard when they do exist.

What does that have to with anything when the question being asked from the very beginning, and the point being made by myself and others is that:

Differences in SQ, secondary to cable changes will often BE HEARD when they DO EXIST. Instances where there's a difference heard that's not there, do not take away anything from this basic point.

So the answer is, yes, cables can make a discernible difference to sound that's significant enough to influence a serious listener to pay attention to cabling when tuning his/her system's sound.

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Differences will be heard when they don't exist. Differences will also not be heard when they do exist. What does that have to with anything when the question being asked from the very beginning, and the point being made by myself and others is that: Differences in SQ, secondary to cable changes will often BE HEARD when they DO EXIST. Instances where there's a difference heard that's not there, do not take away anything from this basic point. So the answer is, yes, cables can make a discernible difference to sound that's significant enough to influence a serious listener to pay attention to cabling when tuning his/her system's sound.

or, perception can equal reality.

or, perception is reality.

 

[myinitialsaredac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif or, perception can equal reality. or, perception is reality.

"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream"


Dave

 

[powertoold]

Man tries cable 1 - perceives a positive difference.

Man concludes cables make difference.

Man tries cable 2 - perceives a negative difference.

Man concludes cable 2 is worse than cable 1.

Later, man tries cable 2 again - perceives a positive difference.

Man concludes cable burn-in exists.

Man goes on Head-Fi to write about his conclusions.

Here we are.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif or, perception can equal reality. or, perception is reality.

Perception has to do with how we perceive what is out there.

The question is, can our sense of hearing perceive a change in sound quality out there secondary to a cable change.

YES, it can.

No need to be obtuse and "smart".

I don't hear anyone putting a headphone to someone's head, switching on the music and then saying, 'if you hear something then it's just perception and it's not real'. The fact is that something is happening and we perceive it as sound.

This need to talk about perception is implying that this difference in sound quality produced by cables has no real measurable component and that it's purely imaginary and a mind game.

 

[powertoold]

Quote:

purely imaginary and a mind game

I don't think it's purely imaginary, but it is a mind game. How you perceive differences not only depends on your focus but also how much attention you give to your focus. Comparing audio equipment is tricky because it's difficult to replicate your exact focus and attention. If you deviate your focus just a little, you may hear more "detail" or "transparency." Further, your level of attention may depend on your mood, time of day, position, etc. As a test, turn off the lights and listen to your headphones lying flat on the floor. I'll bet that it'll sound different than with the lights on and in the seated position.

To make matters even worse, people often compare audio equipment without regard to volume matching, so that leaves too many variables unconsidered.

 

[olblueyez]

Any people with real experience step up to the plate and say something equivilent to "I compared a 5 dollar cable to a 200 dollar cable and they sounded the same" yet? Even for those of you who dont beleive then surely you can understand the difference between a shielded cable and a non shielded cable, right? If you can say "I understand why they use shielding in cables", then you CANNOT say cables do not affect sound quality. Let me know when someone with proper experience steps up and says they change nothing. Isnt it funny how the very people who can hear the difference between 2 different amps or two different sets of headphones are considered normal but when we speak of cables then its all in the mind. Its also funny how these statements always come from people who never bothered to try a 200 dollar cable against a 5 dollar cable. Just for the record, "What I hear is not my mind playing tricks on me", anyone saying other wise is admitting to the beleif that "they know me better than I know myself".

 

[powertoold]

If you can hear a difference, great!

But you'd be kidding yourself if you don't think aural perception is tricky. No one can reliably remember the musical details he hears, so he'd be setting himself up to be deceived by his own perception.

You also have to consider the fact that there are too many variables to consider if you're doing your own testing.

If having considered all these things you're still sure there are differences, then that's great! Your hobby just expanded to cables.

 

[olblueyez]

What color were Peter Brady's pants in episode 8 in the third season? Better yet, how many colors are in the Monet painting? I dont think I should have to explain this but I guess I do. Just because you cant remember something doesnt mean you dont hear it. Explain in scientific terms why hearing perception is more "tricky" than sight or smell. The simple fact is it isnt any more tricky than the other senses, its the best thing a cable disbeleiver can come up with, isnt that what it really is? Saying anything no matter how logical or un logical it is because the whole point is to be right at the expense of common sense and logical thought? I dont think I am the one kidding myself. Why not go to a camera fourm and tell everyone that lenses dont matter and that it is a simple matter of perception (mind playing games on them) when they see a difference between different lenses.

 

[Lamenthe]

I'd say it's a tricky question. If we're talking headphone cables, I personally believe that they do affect SQ to some degree.

However something like a digital interconnect, (e.g. USB cables) unless it's very poorly made, won't affect anything over short distances. Only over long distances there can be degradation.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamenthe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd say it's a tricky question. If we're talking headphone cables, I personally believe that they do affect SQ to some degree. However something like a digital interconnect, (e.g. USB cables) unless it's very poorly made, won't affect anything over short distances. Only over long distances there can be degradation.

I don't see the trickiness of the question and you just answered it. Cables do affect SQ. If there is no discernible difference between two particular cables, how does this then negate the validity of the statement that "interconnect cables can affect SQ in a humanly discernible way?"

 

[Lamenthe]

Well I guess "tricky" is a misnomer. Really the answer would be "it depends." So if we're talking the big picture (the entirety of the audio chain), your assessment of my statement is correct. I just wanted to be more specific about my answer than just a yes or no considering this is for a research paper.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamenthe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I guess "tricky" is a misnomer. Really the answer would be "it depends." So if we're talking the big picture (the entirety of the audio chain), your assessment of my statement is correct. I just wanted to be more specific about my answer than just a yes or no considering this is for a research paper.

I have to thank "oblueyez" for the link he provided to HDTracks. It again opened a new frontier of possibilities I had not really heard before. For the first time I was listening to SACD quality music. One ~6 min track in flac format is about 120MB and the encoding is in excess of 3000Kb/sec. The music uses all the potential afforded. The detail and dynamic range are astonishing to my inexperienced ears using my current setup. I can't wait to see what these quality recordings sound like when I get my HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp and DAC later this week.

It's with this sort of recording and equipment that you easily appreciate the changes that cables will offer. So many commercial recordings sound pretty much the same once you play them with equipment beyond a minimum standard. Increasing the standard does nothing significant. More and more, I'm beginning to realize the obvious factor of equipment and recording quality when listening for minor differences, and that what may sound minor or insignificant with one setup and recording combo, could easily sound very significant with another setup and recording combo.

Olblueyez, thanks for that tip, although I couldn't find the free recordings you mentioned, so I bought some music. I bought the 'Ultimate Demonstration CD vol.2". It's actually a CD for audiophiles, with each track being given a writeup on its strengths, what you should listen for, and how it will test the strength of your equipment and ears.

Fantastic!

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have to thank "oblueyez" for the link he provided to HDTracks. It again opened a new frontier of possibilities I had not really heard before. For the first time I was listening to SACD quality music. One ~6 min track in flac format is about 120MB and the encoding is in excess of 3000Kb/sec. The music uses all the potential afforded. The detail and dynamic range are astonishing to my inexperienced ears using my current setup. I can't wait to see what these quality recordings sound like when I get my HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp and DAC later this week. It's with this sort of recording and equipment that you easily appreciate the changes that cables will offer. So many commercial recordings sound pretty much the same once you play them with equipment beyond a minimum standard. Increasing the standard does nothing significant. More and more, I'm beginning to realize the obvious factor of equipment and recording quality when listening for minor differences, and that what may sound minor or insignificant with one setup and recording combo, could easily sound very significant with another setup and recording combo. Olblueyez, thanks for that tip, although I couldn't find the free recordings you mentioned, so I bought some music. I bought the 'Ultimate Demonstration CD vol.2". It's actually a CD for audiophiles, with each track being given a writeup on its strengths, what you should listen for, and how it will test the strength of your equipment and ears. Fantastic!

Sorry you had trouble. I E-mailed the link to my Dad yesterday and he was able to get to the free stuff so I hope it is still working. Did you register and get an E-mail from them?

"To download Hot Tones in High-Definition now, go to HDtracks.com and register your information. You'll receive a full set of instructions detailing how to immediately download your free Hot Tones in High-Definition. You'll also receive a PDF file containing the album cover art and liner notes".

Kinda makes you pissed that all your CD's are not recorded like that.

 

[mark_h]

Woah this thread got really heavy!! Philosophy and all that!