[tinyman392]

Quote:

To extend the needle in a haystack analogy, cable believers say that needle is there and has a profound and clear affect on the haystack. Cable non believers say that it may not be there, it does not have any significant affect and in any case, should we not concentrate on all of the hay?

The only way to find out is to rid of the hay and see if it's there.  But yes, that is the gist of it.  Cable believers believe they have found the needle in a sense (They heard a difference).  Non-cable believers have searched for the needle, but haven't been successful.  The really big non-believers have searched a few times, and just given up assuming the needle isn't there. 
 
I am not for cable believers, I do believe that cables do make a difference in sound, but the difference is too negligible.  In order to find out whether the difference is there, what we really need to do is get firm evidence that shows that electric currents move the electrons differently (dynamically different) in different metals.  Right now the only evidence we do have are resistance levels.  These are really small though, so I do believe there is something there, we just aren't looking in the right places.  Everything is saying stuff that's already known (old knowledge), what we really need is new knowledge.  If electrons were to truly move differently in a silver cable as compared to a copper one, then the output sound may differ.  Another thing to consider is temperature.  Cable resistance changes with temperature.  Could this be what they are hearing?

 

[High_Q]

Quote:

The only way to find out is to rid of the hay and see if it's there.  But yes, that is the gist of it.  Cable believers believe they have found the needle in a sense (They heard a difference).  Non-cable believers have searched for the needle, but haven't been successful.  The really big non-believers have searched a few times, and just given up assuming the needle isn't there. 
 
Assumption.
 
I am not for cable believers, I do believe that cables do make a difference in sound, but the difference is too negligible.  In order to find out whether the difference is there, what we really need to do is get firm evidence that shows that electric currents move the electrons differently (dynamically different) in different metals.  Right now the only evidence we do have are resistance levels. 
 
No.
 
These are really small though, so I do believe there is something there, we just aren't looking in the right places.  Everything is saying stuff that's already known (old knowledge), what we really need is new knowledge.  If electrons were to truly move differently in a silver cable as compared to a copper one, then the output sound may differ.  Another thing to consider is temperature.  Cable resistance changes with temperature.  Could this be what they are hearing?
 
I suggest if you are so curious, instead of doubting and posting crazy assumptions, study material science and EE, and provide us with useful info.  And stop stating we don't know this and that until you have studied every discipline out there to post Doc level.  We know more than you may think.

 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Tinyman, there is a flaw in what you have said. Many trolls try to turn this debate into 'I can hear a difference, no you can't'. Those of us who have put real effort into researching and understanding what is going on with cables are saying 'we accept you hear a difference, we are wondering why you hear a difference'. So when it comes to the needle in the haystack we are saying, 'it is highly unlikely that there is a needle there, even if there is a needle there it makes no difference, in any case the tons of hay is more than likely to be you your answer and you should not ignore that'.
 
(The needle represents the electrical property to that no one can find/isolate which causes differences in SQ, the hay is placebo.)

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

"you should assume that your subjective observation is in error"
 
The purposes of headphones as I understand them are
1) Analysing music for production/assessment/modification, assuming that all listeners will hear something different for obvious reasons
2) Listening to music for pleasure
 
It follows that subjective observations are all that matter with headphones.

Unless you have an unlimited budget, knowing something about the science behind sound reproduction is essential to get the the best value.  Otherwise you'll end up spending money on random things that don't help actually help.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

Tinyman, there is a flaw in what you have said. Many trolls try to turn this debate into 'I can hear a difference, no you can't'. Those of us who have put real effort into researching and understanding what is going on with cables are saying 'we accept you hear a difference, we are wondering why you hear a difference'. So when it comes to the needle in the haystack we are saying, 'it is highly unlikely that there is a needle there, even if there is a needle there it makes no difference, in any case the tons of hay is more than likely to be you your answer and you should not ignore that'.
 
(The needle represents the electrical property to that no one can find/isolate which causes differences in SQ, the hay is placebo.)

 
I see now.  I meant it in a different way.  I was saying that each straw of hay was a different reason why it sounded different, the needle was the true reason (or reasons, there could be more than one needle).  To find the needle, you have to go through the hay (test each idea; toss the ones you know won't work), then you can find the needle (reason why they hear a difference).  I wouldn't call the hay a placebo since it causes no difference in sound, it'd just be an idea that didn't pan out.  In this representation, there is no placebo since there shouldn't be one.  Each hay represents one targeted reason why people say there could be a difference (however, further testing shows there isn't), the needle is the real deal.  The reason why I use needle in a haystack is because the needle can be hard to find (there are plenty of reasons why it doesn't work, only a select few, if that, that do).
 
What's even harder is to find the reason that also ties together the people who hear a difference and people who don't.  Since everyone is telling the truth about what they hear (or not hear).  I believe that the reason people hear a difference in sound and a reason why people don't are tied together somehow (IE, it could be the same reason, but on opposite ends of the spectrum). Whether this is true or not, I don't know.  Only further research can figure this out. 
 
My idea (don't take this the wrong way) is that it's the thickness of the metal (not the cable, but the metal in the cable) and lengths that are causing the differences here.  A thicker cable allows less resistance (which allows more voltage to go through) compared to a thinner one.  The opposite is also true.  Since the resistance coefficients of the actual materials are extremely small from one another (and able to be ignored to a sense) the thickness and length of a cable would be the main differences.  Longer cables have more resistance. 
 
To test this theory, you'd need to test two cables with similar specs (same thickness and length) to see if you hear a difference (different materials here).  Then you'd test multiple differences in thickness and length to see if you heard a difference (you'd use the same material for the cable here).  This would show you if it was truly what the cable was made of, or if the dimensions of the cable were making a difference.  If it was the dimensions, we're done.  If it's the material, we'd have to find out what property of the material it would be. 
 
I'm a broke college student, so I couldn't test this, if you have multiple cables and want to go explore, be my guest.
 
If I sound like a troll right now, I do apologize, I'm as interested in why this occurs as the rest of you.  I'm not trying to be a troll.

 

[High_Q]

Quote:

My idea (don't take this the wrong way) is that it's the thickness of the metal (not the cable, but the metal in the cable) and lengths that are causing the differences here.  A thicker cable allows less resistance (which allows more voltage to go through) compared to a thinner one.  The opposite is also true.  Since the resistance coefficients of the actual materials are extremely small from one another (and able to be ignored to a sense) the thickness and length of a cable would be the main differences.  Longer cables have more resistance. 
 
Voltage does not go through the cable.  You apply voltage across the conductor, and current flows through the copper because of the potential difference.  There is what you call a greater voltage drop across more resistive conductor.  When you say longer cable, state how long and how much resistance.
 
To test this theory, you'd need to test two cables with similar specs (same thickness and length) to see if you hear a difference (different materials here).  Then you'd test multiple differences in thickness and length to see if you heard a difference (you'd use the same material for the cable here).  This would show you if it was truly what the cable was made of, or if the dimensions of the cable were making a difference.  If it was the dimensions, we're done.  If it's the material, we'd have to find out what property of the material it would be. 
 
you are assuming correlation between dimensions to audible differences. I feel that you need to know the physics before asking questions.  Because questions will be answered.

 

 
 

 

[tinyman392]

@High_Q: That is what I meant with the voltage.  Sorry about that.  You sure are good at catching every mistake I make

 
As for length, since this is only a theory (I didn't use actual numbers) based off of this simple equation: R = p (l/a) where R is the resistance, p is the resistivity of the material (normally it's represented by the Greek rho), l is the length and a is the cross-sectional area.  If length goes up, then the resistance will to.  Different materials do have different resistivities, but the differences are so small that it wouldn't affect it as much.  Likewise, if you increase the area of the cable, the resistance goes down.  This can cause a change in sound.
 
As for my assuming of a corralation between dimension and audio, that is what I want to test, but cant

 

[High_Q]

^Good.  Instead of simply stating that cables make a difference because of resistance or whatever.  You actually investegated the physics, got a real value, and have made a conclusion based on a fact.

 

[tinyman392]

Quote:

^Good.  Instead of simply stating that cables make a difference because of resistance or whatever.  You actually investegated the physics, got a real value, and have made a conclusion based on a fact.

That's what I've been trying to say...  Worded it weirdly I guess

 

[samsquanch]

Don't forget about capacitance of dielectric!  oh and shielding (foil/braided, double shield, quad shield, oh my!) or lack there of!  WHEEEE!!!!

 

[High_Q]

DP.


 

 

[High_Q]

You had to bring it up didn't you? 

  And where did you pop out of?   You should stay in the DIY cage.

 
Quote:

Don't forget about capacitance of dielectric!  oh and shielding (foil/braided, double shield, quad shield, oh my!) or lack there of!  WHEEEE!!!!

 

 

[samsquanch]

Quote:

You had to bring it up didn't you? 

  And where did you pop out of?   You should stay in the DIY cage.

 


 

 
What, they're all valid points, Mr. Engineer.  DIY moves too slow, so I gotta spread my wings and fly all over the danged place!

 

[Uncle Erik]

@High_Q: That is what I meant with the voltage.  Sorry about that.  You sure are good at catching every mistake I make

 
As for length, since this is only a theory (I didn't use actual numbers) based off of this simple equation: R = p (l/a) where R is the resistance, p is the resistivity of the material (normally it's represented by the Greek rho), l is the length and a is the cross-sectional area.  If length goes up, then the resistance will to.  Different materials do have different resistivities, but the differences are so small that it wouldn't affect it as much.  Likewise, if you increase the area of the cable, the resistance goes down.  This can cause a change in sound.
 
As for my assuming of a corralation between dimension and audio, that is what I want to test, but cant

Sure.

The problem is that these don't make much of a difference at audio frequencies. There is a great deal of - valid - cable research when it comes to high-power transmission lines and cables that handle gigahertz and higher frequencies.

Strangely, all of that research gets thrown out the window when it comes to audio frequencies. While theory holds up and is easily testable when you're talking kilovolts and gigahertz transmission lines, it all somehow becomes "invalid" when you're talking audio frequencies. When you get to the audio range, the theory is that there is no theory, nothing can be tested or measured. Further, if you try to measure audio cables then you're a "hater," jealous of people eho can afford expensive cables and have poor hearing. Of course, because "hate" is a valid part of the scientific method, right?

You also have to dispense with all understanding of human psychology. Tests where the subject doesn't know sample A from B is wrong. Wrong! Very wrong! Because every similar test, conducted on hundreds of thousands of other products is inaccurate. Decades of research on placebo must also be thrown out. That's because haters are trying to ruin the fun and let their ears decide.

If you do manage to run some tests (and I hope you do) expect to be told that you hate cables because you can't afford them. Also that your hearing sucks and your gear is garbage.

 

[Willakan]

If you do want to look at some tests, search for nick_charles' on this forum. He didn't need expensive gear to show measurable differences, but there was no price/performance correlation and the differences were stupidly small (ie inaudible beyond all shadow of a doubt).
Of course, they're irrelevant because his gear and cables weren't expensive enough.../sarcasm (it would be funnier and less depressing if people didn't actually say stuff like that in response to it)