[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love the title of this thread.

What parts of the title do you love?

 

[elrod-tom]

OK...here's my opinon FWIW: the Chinese team cheated. A number of those girls are not 16, and they know it.

I say this based on the following:

• Some of the stuff that I've read that's been uncovered about the age of these gymnasts.
• My own experience with a daughter in competitive gymnastics - there are definate advantages that are age-related in the sport.
• My memory of the old eastern block style sports-as-propaganda.

A lot of folks have said "what's the harm"? Well, consider this: my daughter, who is 9 years old, competes at a relatively low level compared to these athletes. She is currently training 18 hours a week, year round...and if she moves up to the next level, she's going to be required to train 25 hours a week.

In case anyone missed it, she's 9 years old...

Now, my wife and I are already having discussions about whether all this is particularly healthy for a girl this age. Life is about more than athletic competition, and in the great scheme of things, it ranks below a lot of other things that are important factors in becoming an intelligent, well rounded person. Having said that, she loves it...and so long as it doesn't interfere with other more important things, we're going to support it.

Now, imagine that instead of 18 or 25 hours a week, she was training 60+ hours a week. Imagine further that she's not permitted to do gymnastics, because she's projected to be above ideal height...she HAS to do something else, something that is not her first love. Oh, and she's essentially removed from the home to facilitate all this. No biggie...I'm sure that she's required to keep up her studies while all this is going on....right?

Finally, when things don't work out, when she's overtrained, injured, burned out? She's tossed on the scrap heap. Now what?

The objective? Propaganda...athletic superiority equates to cultural and political superiority. This is an old story...and cheating of all sorts and stripes is central to the plot-line. Anyone old enough to remember the old East German swimmers? Now, I'm not saying that nobody else is cheating...but what I'm talking about is INSTITUTIONALIZED cheating, not some rogue athlete or coach...and all in service of a political agenda.

Is anything about this a GOOD thing? I don't think so. I don't know that it's a good thing for anyone. I feel it's even worse when you consider how young some of these atheletes really are.

THIS is the reason that age restrictions like these are put into place. Regardless of whether you agree with it, it's the rules...and those who break the rules are cheating. Those who cheat ought to have their medals stripped, just like Marion Jones when she was caught cheating.

I hope to see it happen...but I doubt it will. It's going to come down to official documents, and when the government is in on the scam, the game is already rigged.

 

[ClieOS]

I agree on what marvin has said - that is, we haven't rule out the possibility of human error, or any other factors in that matter.

My question are, what does the poll serve? What effect will there be when people tell you that they are 90% sure there is some kind of fault play without hard evidence? (sorry Blitzula, but this isn't intended toward you, just an example) The problem is, while the writers might be doing nothing more than expressing his/her opinion, the reader can, and often do, get the wrong idea.

Case in point, the singing double and the CG footage are very much mistaken as some kind of cover-up or government arm twisting by the Westerner because their media have the tendency to leave out detail. While we have at least a chance to read the story from the other side, the same can not be said to thousands of other forums where no one is stepping forward for the other side. The end result? Unnecessary flaming, hatred and misunderstanding because of miscommunication and words that were lost in translation.

What I hope is that people can be more open minded, and do not pass on judgment without first realizing none of us is capable of knowing every detail of every event, as hard as we may try. If you are wearing colored glasses when you look at the world, everything will be colored. The most dangerous part is, when people start to look at the world without realizing we are all wearing colored glasses of some sort. Our failure to go beyond our own mindset is often what stopped us from achieving a deep understanding of each other, and sometime in the very worst of cases, any understanding at all.

 

[saint.panda]

I did a little test and about 14 out of 15 I've asked here in Beijing believe that she's under 16 just judging by looks. And they also think it's wrong, just no reason to question the whole Olympics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom The objective? Propaganda...athletic superiority equates to cultural and political superiority. This is an old story...and cheating of all sorts and stripes is central to the plot-line. Anyone old enough to remember the old East German swimmers? Now, I'm not saying that nobody else is cheating...but what I'm talking about is INSTITUTIONALIZED cheating, not some rogue athlete or coach...and all in service of a political agenda.

It's not much different from the USA or any other country pumping millions of dollars into sports. Believe it or not, but sports is huge in China and athletes in China are just as much role models as they are propaganda objects (and advertising objects). It'd be naive to think that "propaganda" doesn't play a part in the West as well. I just read an interview yesterday with Germany's head of gymnastics who said that because Germany performed so badly in gymnastics this time, they will provide a higher budget to win more medals next time. Also, nothing's really super "institutionalised" in China on a large scale, let alone cheating. If true, it's more like one of the sports associations decided to change her age and convinced some officials to provide the passport. Institutionalised cheating would mean for me things like genetical doping on a large scale. It's really not any different than "institutionalised" cheating in bicycling, just that the Chinese government wrongly decides keep the lid on the wrong-doing this time. Yes, it's wrong and yes the government is involved but it's not as black and white, and certainly not conspiracy grade stuff. Of course, all of this assuming the cheating did indeed take place, which I think is most likely until counter evidence is produced.

Unlike institutionalised cheating what is true, however, is that China spent an enormous and, compared to Wester countries most likely unproportional amount of effort in training these athletes for these Olympics. One advantage of having an authoritarian government with deep pockets. However, not only the government put all their might and will behind these Olympics. There's nothing greater for an athlete to win gold in his home country, especially a country, which in Chinese perception has always been a weak country in terms of prestige on the global stage. And everything is relative. If you compare Chinese middle school to Western middle school, you'd think Chinese schools are prison camps. Sports training schools in China may not have the same comfort level as in the West, but for some people, sports is the only way up and they make personal decisions that's it's worth it. Take a look at the training methods in acrobatics schools and kungfu schools: for some of the kids doing gymnastics, that's the alternative. Although there is immense pressure, nobody is forcing these athletes to excel or making them take drugs East-Germany style. The Olympics this time around had the most doping controls in human history (33% more than Athens) and test results are frozen for 8 years.

There's a lot wrong with the Olympics and my personal opinion has always been that China should have never gotten it, too early. But if there has been a bright spot of the Olympics, it's the sports.

 

[pcf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK...here's my opinon FWIW: the Chinese team cheated. A number of those girls are not 16, and they know it. I say this based on the following: Some of the stuff that I've read that's been uncovered about the age of these gymnasts. My own experience with a daughter in competitive gymnastics - there are definate advantages that are age-related in the sport. My memory of the old eastern block style sports-as-propaganda. A lot of folks have said "what's the harm"? Well, consider this: my daughter, who is 9 years old, competes at a relatively low level compared to these athletes. She is currently training 18 hours a week, year round...and if she moves up to the next level, she's going to be required to train 25 hours a week. In case anyone missed it, she's 9 years old... Now, my wife and I are already having discussions about whether all this is particularly healthy for a girl this age. Life is about more than athletic competition, and in the great scheme of things, it ranks below a lot of other things that are important factors in becoming an intelligent, well rounded person. Having said that, she loves it...and so long as it doesn't interfere with other more important things, we're going to support it. Now, imagine that instead of 18 or 25 hours a week, she was training 60+ hours a week. Imagine further that she's not permitted to do gymnastics, because she's projected to be above ideal height...she HAS to do something else, something that is not her first love. Oh, and she's essentially removed from the home to facilitate all this. No biggie...I'm sure that she's required to keep up her studies while all this is going on....right? Finally, when things don't work out, when she's overtrained, injured, burned out? She's tossed on the scrap heap. Now what? The objective? Propaganda...athletic superiority equates to cultural and political superiority. This is an old story...and cheating of all sorts and stripes is central to the plot-line. Anyone old enough to remember the old East German swimmers? Now, I'm not saying that nobody else is cheating...but what I'm talking about is INSTITUTIONALIZED cheating, not some rogue athlete or coach...and all in service of a political agenda. Is anything about this a GOOD thing? I don't think so. I don't know that it's a good thing for anyone. I feel it's even worse when you consider how young some of these atheletes really are. THIS is the reason that age restrictions like these are put into place. Regardless of whether you agree with it, it's the rules...and those who break the rules are cheating. Those who cheat ought to have their medals stripped, just like Marion Jones when she was caught cheating. I hope to see it happen...but I doubt it will. It's going to come down to official documents, and when the government is in on the scam, the game is already rigged.

I share your concern. I have a daughter who is about the same age as yours. My wife just wouldn't let her go anywhere near that sport. Two 12year old girls in our col-de-sac are doing gymnastics. It just scares us how much time they spend on training and how competitive they have to be.
One girl was told by her coach to "work through" her injury. Like you said-what's that for? If you don't get to international level( and how many of them do?), you are left with a wracked body and maybe losing one or two inches in height. I was told that gymnastics is the sport that cause most injuries at schools here in USA. I remember seeing footage of these identical twin girls- one does gymnastics and the other one doesn't. They don't look identical anymore. One is about 12inch shorter and looks a few years younger. Guess which one that is.
My Canadian friend Linzee was in the Canadian gymnastic team for the 1978 game but never got to go because of the boycott.(I don't think Canada would have won any medals anyway.) All those years of hard training came to nothing and she has been suffering from aching joints since.

Going back on topic- I agree that cheating is wrong and IOC should try their best to get to the bottom of this. If the Chinese are lying about their age they should be punished. (by the way, I'm Chinese.)

-Paul

 

[cantsleep]

still cant believe that Lebron James is only 23yrs old

but again, cheating is cheating.. if cheated.

 

[elrod-tom]

Folks, we're on the verge of having this thread locked. I've just deleted several posts to keep the thread on track. Discuss with civility please.

 

[saint.panda]

A very nice write-up by Tony Blair about his post-Olympics thoughts on China: We Can Help China Embrace the Future - WSJ.com

Not apologetic but forward-looking. One particularly eloquent sentence:
"Observers should illuminate the distance to go, by all means, but recognize the distance traveled."

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif Folks, we're on the verge of having this thread locked. I've just deleted several posts to keep the thread on track. Discuss with civility please.

That's a pity since one of the posters had brought up what to me would be a fascinating topic for discussion. Wasn't really on track for the thread since it was not China specific nor having much of anything to do with gymnastics but instead dealt with the duty a person owes their government when they disagree with that government's policies.

 

[-=Germania=-]

I have a cousin who just turned 14.

She competed in Gynastics for years and was nationally ranked when she was only 9. She was on the track to be on the national team when she hurt her back just 1.5 years ago. Her parents made her quit Gynastics because it was alreay taking its tole on her young body (Ankles, knees, back, neck, wrist) and they did not want her to have further permanent damage.

Tha family applauded them for it and my cousin felt relieved that there was no one in the family pressuring her to go back.
She has since done extremely well in girls soccer as a forward on a team that went to the state champs!

The sport is beautiful, but the truth is tha the body really wasn't meant for such things. Pro Football players see less injury than this!

My feeling about it is that Wrong is Wrong and quite frankly there was a lot of things done either by or condoned or looked-over by the government which seems Shietsy or under handed to say the least over the course of these Olympics. That is saying nothing about the Chinese people, but the people who did such things need to take a look in the mirror.

 

[DrBenway]

I have two 14-year-old neices who, between the two of them, participate in softball, swim team, soccer, horseback riding, and figure skating. They enjoy their sports tremendously, and my sister and brother-in-law have seen to it that these activities are kept in proper proportion in their daughters's lives. To me, this is how it should be. Neither of them will likely compete on the highest level in any sport, but they will gain the benefits of fitness and character-building (not to mention fun) that sports can provide.

When I look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating, and how hard parents push children as young as five or six, I wince. Let's face it: this is not about the kids. It's about the parents. As far as I'm concerned, both of these sports can become extremely unhealthy when overemphasized so that a parent can live vicariously through a child's success.

And it's not only sports, frankly. When I was in high school, I had a friend who was a scholarship student at a major NYC dance company. By the time she was 15 or 16, chronic injuries to her feet and ankles ended her chances of ever pursuing ballet professionally. So there she was, devestated, with nothing to fall back on, since dance classes and training had made studying and grades a distant second in her life. Needless to say, her choices for higher education were very limited, given her poor grades. I just don't see how parents can do this to a child.

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's a pity since one of the posters had brought up what to me would be a fascinating topic for discussion. Wasn't really on track for the thread since it was not China specific nor having much of anything to do with gymnastics but instead dealt with the duty a person owes their government when they disagree with that government's policies.

I still think the politics sub-forum should be reinstated.

 

[Lil' Knight]

I don't know what you guys depend on to judge one's age?

You can't just take an American 16-yrs old girl to compare with an Asian 16-yrs old one. Asian tend to look younger than their age.

When I told to my roommate's friend that I'm 20, he didn't believe me. He said I'm only 14!

 

[oicdn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBenway /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have two 14-year-old neices who, between the two of them, participate in softball, swim team, soccer, horseback riding, and figure skating. They enjoy their sports tremendously, and my sister and brother-in-law have seen to it that these activities are kept in proper proportion in their daughters's lives. To me, this is how it should be. Neither of them will likely compete on the highest level in any sport, but they will gain the benefits of fitness and character-building (not to mention fun) that sports can provide. When I look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating, and how hard parents push children as young as five or six, I wince. Let's face it: this is not about the kids. It's about the parents. As far as I'm concerned, both of these sports can become extremely unhealthy when overemphasized so that a parent can live vicariously through a child's success. And it's not only sports, frankly. When I was in high school, I had a friend who was a scholarship student at a major NYC dance company. By the time she was 15 or 16, chronic injuries to her feet and ankles ended her chances of ever pursuing ballet professionally. So there she was, devestated, with nothing to fall back on, since dance classes and training had made studying and grades a distant second in her life. Needless to say, her choices for higher education were very limited, given her poor grades. I just don't see how parents can do this to a child.

I don't condone the pushing of the children, or living vicariously through them...to each their own. But in retrospect, the kids will be HAPPY their parents pushed them, especially if they made a podium, let alone a gold in the olympics. Do you know what kind of doors this opens for people? Most everybody in the 96' Olympics girls gymnastics teams are doing very well for themselves because of endorsements and everything else. An example is Dominique Moceanu...you think she would have been a feature article in People magazine had she not been an olympic gymnast?

I only wish sometimes my parent pushed me to do somethings, as I'd be probably be at the top of the game in some of those things.

yeah, it can be detrimental to some of those kids, but think about what kind of values it instills in them to not be able to quit or just stop trying....it does more positive things than people think. People tend to only look at the negative side of things because it makes for a good story or article.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't condone the pushing of the children, or living vicariously through them...to each their own. But in retrospect, the kids will be HAPPY their parents pushed them, especially if they made a podium, let alone a gold in the olympics. Do you know what kind of doors this opens for people? Most everybody in the 96' Olympics girls gymnastics teams are doing very well for themselves because of endorsements and everything else. An example is Dominique Moceanu...you think she would have been a feature article in People magazine had she not been an olympic gymnast? I only wish sometimes my parent pushed me to do somethings, as I'd be probably be at the top of the game in some of those things. yeah, it can be detrimental to some of those kids, but think about what kind of values it instills in them to not be able to quit or just stop trying....it does more positive things than people think. People tend to only look at the negative side of things because it makes for a good story or article.

I think you are very optimistic in suggesting that most, or even many, athletes ever see substantial financial returns. Medal winners constitute a vanishingly small fraction of those who start out with the dream, and not even all of them end up doing well financially. A larger percentage of participants in the glamour sports will see returns, but I think we are still talking about a tiny percentage overall.

This is, to me, just like the college sports industry, and I do mean industry. The number of kids who play college sports and go on to the NBA or NFL is miniscule. We are talking about single digits. The colleges, particularly the sports mills, squeeze every drop of revenue out of these young people, and graduation rates for most big-time programs are appalling.

Thousands of college athletes leave school with zero pro prospects, no diploma, and virtually no marketable skills. This is the rankest sort of exploitation, but, as I said it's an industry.

I think the average Olympic athlete has roughly the same prospects.