[Jake2]

@rickmcinnis I'd just add to the above I have both - ground boxes (albeit only three, and modest 2kg Quartz Acoustics ones vs the ~4kg highly optimised DIY boxes per CDA's design) and in addition to my home's safety ground rod, a dedicated second ground rod for my hifi system via a high pass filter. The HP filter is the Puritan GroundMaster (GM) which passes only low voltage high frequency current, not dangerous mains voltage/ 50/60hz AC.

The dedicated ground rod is in no way a replacement for the safety ground/earth connected to my fuse box. Agree with CDACosta's statements here re the role and criticality of the latter.

The purpose of the dedicated, secondary ground rod is not as a safety ground, but is the same as for ground boxes, to provide a low-impedance path to ground for high frequency noise on the ground plane.

I found the effect of the ground boxes and the dedicated ground rod similar in character, albeit the magnitude of the GM connection from the Puritan PSM156, which lowers the noise on the AC ground of the six connected components, is unsurprisingly greater than that of a single box connected to one component. I don't doubt that if I had more and/or larger and better ground boxes, the benefit from the dedicated ground rod would be less marked.

There is also the potential to do signal grounding, for which a second GM and run of cable to the ground rod is recommended, and for which several manufacturers, including Synergistic Research and Puritan sell dedicated signal grounding boards, the 'Routemaster' in Puritan's case. I have tried some test DIY signal grounding via the GM with some RCA etc terminated connectors direct to components and depending on the cable used the effect is very much like adding another ground box. Check out the Puritan thread for more info on both.

As it stands the two approaches are most complementary, the more low impedance - and low noise - routes to ground (box or true earth) for HF noise can only be a good thing!

 

[rickmcinnis]

Thanks to the both of you for your experienced counsel.

I was speaking of a dedicated for audio grounding rod. So you think there could be value in using both the box and the rod?

My amplifiers are not in metal boxes - there is no chassis to ground - there are heatsinks.

Would one connect the grounding box to the signal ground?

Now to do something with this!

 

[cdacosta]

Thanks to the both of you for your experienced counsel.

I was speaking of a dedicated for audio grounding rod. So you think there could be value in using both the box and the rod?

My amplifiers are not in metal boxes - there is no chassis to ground - there are heatsinks.

Would one connect the grounding box to the signal ground?

Now to do something with this!

Yes to box and dedicated grounding rod. Yes, best install of a passive ground box is at signal ground, starting at the DAC.

 

[Jake2]

Thanks to the both of you for your experienced counsel.

I was speaking of a dedicated for audio grounding rod. So you think there could be value in using both the box and the rod?

My amplifiers are not in metal boxes - there is no chassis to ground - there are heatsinks.

Would one connect the grounding box to the signal ground?

Now to do something with this!

Rick - as far as I'm aware few on this thread have used both (though I may be wrong - has anyone else?) so not sure how many comparative responses you will get. Additional ground rods require a house/living situation for which this is feasible, whereas ground boxes can be used by anyone, hence the broader appeal. If you live in the right country they can be done quite cheaply too.

You might have better luck asking this question over on the Puritan thread, though even there not sure if anyone else has commented on using both.

I can only speak to my experience with Quartz Acoustic 2kg Premium ground boxes (their basic model) - the three I have are definitely complemented by the dedicated ground rod.

I can't speak to larger, more optimised DIY ground boxes as is the primary subject of this thread. I have no experience on the DIY ground box front as the cost and availability of materials is either non-existent or prohibitive here in NZ. @cdacosta is the expert there.

If I was to speculate I'd say that a sufficient number of high quality, good volume ground boxes per the designs on this thread would be superior to signal grounding via a dedicated ground rod (effectively star grounded at the signal aggregation point to the ground rod cable) as there's no possibility of noise transfer between components with dedicated ground boxes and the path to 'ground' is much shorter so lower impedance, not to mention optimised materials better able to dissipate HF noise. What true earth has in its favour is its simply volume, but that's offset by distance = a higher impedance path. But I do think that even with multiple ground boxes used for signal and AC grounding a cleaner, lower impedance path to earth for the AC ground would still be beneficial to the system.

If there is one central a theme I've observed from this thread - as was touched on by CDACosta - it is noise reduction, and the more locations this is done the better, whatever the method: ground boxes, Rochelle salt bags/wraps, graphite materials (IME), dedicated ground rods.

 

[cdacosta]

I am at work/lunch so I will be brief. Passive ground box concept and design is to filter noise from signal ground at system component's internal electrical stages. They also happen to work for filtering earth ground. Signal ground filtering of components is accomplishing something different to a dedicated ground rod for the system.

 

[Jake2]

Signal ground filtering of components is accomplishing something different to a dedicated ground rod for the system.

Agree this is true for the standard use case of a dedicated ground rod where it is connected only to the star ground/ground terminal of a power conditioner, so only grounds the AC ground of components plugged into the conditioner.

However when signal grounds of components are also directly connected to a dedicated ground rod by means of a hub (with a bunch of banana plug sockets for signal ground cables) like the Puritan Routemaster or Russ Andrews' grounding 'routers', it is analogous to signal grounding using ground boxes. Hence my comments about the longer signal path to literal Earth, greater impedance, potential noise contamination downside of the star ground for signal ground etc

https://www.russandrews.com/superrouter-signature-edition/
https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/puritan-audio-laboratories-route-master/?v=8e3eb2c69a18

 

[cdacosta]

Agree this is true for the standard use case of a dedicated ground rod where it is connected only to the star ground/ground terminal of a power conditioner, so only grounds the AC ground of components plugged into the conditioner.

However when signal grounds of components are also directly connected to a dedicated ground rod by means of a hub (with a bunch of banana plug sockets for signal ground cables) like the Puritan Routemaster or Russ Andrews' grounding 'routers', it is analogous to signal grounding using ground boxes. Hence my comments about the longer signal path to literal Earth, greater impedance, potential noise contamination downside of the star ground for signal ground etc

https://www.russandrews.com/superrouter-signature-edition/
https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/puritan-audio-laboratories-route-master/?v=8e3eb2c69a18

In looking at the products in the links you provided, specifically the Puritan Audio Laboratories Route Master and Russ Andrews Superrouter. The concepts are similar but different vs say a ground box. They are all attempting to lower noise within signal ground but go about it differently. I have not personally compared the different products to be able to judge the differences. But likely the following review of the Russ Andrews offering vs CAD GC1 is likely fairly accurate. CAD GC1 is like the DIY ground boxes, including the reviewer's description of what the CAD GC1 passive ground box does. Would be interesting to "hear" the differences between the products.

https://www.russandrews.com/us/superrouter-signature-review/

 

[Jake2]

In looking at the products in the links you provided, specifically the Puritan Audio Laboratories Route Master and Russ Andrews Superrouter. The concepts are similar but different vs say a ground box. They are all attempting to lower noise within signal ground but go about it differently. I have not personally compared the different products to be able to judge the differences. But likely the following review of the Russ Andrews offering vs CAD GC1 is likely fairly accurate. CAD GC1 is like the DIY ground boxes, including the reviewer's description of what the CAD GC1 passive ground box does. Would be interesting to "hear" the differences between the products.

https://www.russandrews.com/us/superrouter-signature-review/

That's an interesting review with a good sense of humour, the guy clearly has good experience with ground boxes, pricey ones at that. The link to the particular review you refer is this one I think:

https://theaudiophileman.com/superrouter-signature-edition-super-router-super-router/

Probably not quite the 'hearing' you mean, as it's neither in person nor Puritan's signal grounding Routemaster, just their standard AC grounding Groundmaster (GM), but even over YouTube the difference is pretty obvious between their base conditioner (PSM136) then the top one (PSM156, the one I have) and with the GM grounding vs not in each case. This is with a Rockna Wavedream and similarly good gear. He also has some DIY RF tweaks at 12:30 using... wait for it... 4 types of crystals/minerals and putty he packs into power cord plugs etc. This delta audible on top of the GM.

I share this not because it sheds any light on ground boxes vs rods - it doesn't - it's one of the best YT demos of the difference quality grounding makes (whether ground box or ground rod), and the guy is just recording with a Samsung phone with playback compressed over YT... we know how much better grounding is in person. One to share with sceptics should you be so inclined...

 

[rickmcinnis]

I was hoping to do one or the other (ground box or audio only ground rod) - not both - at least, not initially. I will start with the boxes and the switchplates.

I am using inverters for my audio AC but I know the EMI radiated from the house wiring still affects my audio AC.

As far as the internal wire - I am going to use 12 gauge copper foil from unused loudspeaker chokes. I also have some silver foil which I will try also. Seems like the surface area of a foil would offer some advantage. Also is it a bad idea to loop the wire no matter what the configuration?

So many options have been suggested! Trying to figure out where to start. Once you have mixed the powdered materials it will be almost impossible to separate them.

One must start somewhere.

What an adventure awaits.

Thanks, again, to the DIY pioneers.

 

[jean-michel6]

Hi ,

This thread is really fantastic .

I have done so far a few steps :
- one grounding box on the input of my passive preamp
- Furutech nano treatment on speaker cable
- emi treatment on ac et iec connectors

The result I am getting are extremely good , my system has made a very significant progress in sound reproduction.
Quite amazing since I have still so many things to do .

I have some questions about grounding box .
On the passive preamp I have connected the grounding box to one rca connector (left or right ) on one of the input.
Does it could be better to use both rca connector ( left and right ) still using only one grounding box ?
Thank’s

 

[cdacosta]

Hi ,

This thread is really fantastic .

I have done so far a few steps :
- one grounding box on the input of my passive preamp
- Furutech nano treatment on speaker cable
- emi treatment on ac et iec connectors

The result I am getting are extremely good , my system has made a very significant progress in sound reproduction.
Quite amazing since I have still so many things to do .

I have some questions about grounding box .
On the passive preamp I have connected the grounding box to one rca connector (left or right ) on one of the input.
Does it could be better to use both rca connector ( left and right ) still using only one grounding box ?
Thank’s

I am glad you are enjoying the info in the thread.

Are you asking if splitting the dual twisted ground cable to accept two RCA jack vs one, then installing at L&R inputs? Would this outperform just the one RCA? Probably not. I do not do this, in my system sounds better with one RCA connector per cable, per ground box.

I do have a few suggestions for you:

1) Treat "all" mechanical connections in your system with Furutech Nano Liquid as next step.

2) Before adding any more ground boxes or wraps of any kind, see if you can figure out how to lower the noise in your AC home wiring with Rochelle salt. I do not know where in the world you live, so may be a bit different than how I or someone in the US would go about it. @EDhaenens I think figured how to treat his home wiring and I believe will share it in this thread soon. Once you get the technique down for where you live the system performance boost is huge.

3) If you have the ingredients to make the GBC Enhancement wraps and Rochelle mini wrap, I would do so to install onto your ground box cable. Will boost performance quite noticeably.

Do you have pics of the ground box you made? How close to my DIY build recipe, including cable is your build? What did the ground box do for the performance of your system?

 

[jean-michel6]

I am glad you are enjoying the info in the thread.

Are you asking if splitting the dual twisted ground cable to accept two RCA jack vs one, then installing at L&R inputs? Would this outperform just the one RCA? Probably not. I do not do this, in my system sounds better with one RCA connector per cable, per ground box.

I do have a few suggestions for you:

1) Treat "all" mechanical connections in your system with Furutech Nano Liquid as next step.

2) Before adding any more ground boxes or wraps of any kind, see if you can figure out how to lower the noise in your AC home wiring with Rochelle salt. I do not know where in the world you live, so may be a bit different than how I or someone in the US would go about it. @EDhaenens I think figured how to treat his home wiring and I believe will share it in this thread soon. Once you get the technique down for where you live the system performance boost is huge.

3) If you have the ingredients to make the GBC Enhancement wraps and Rochelle mini wrap, I would do so to install onto your ground box cable. Will boost performance quite noticeably.

Do you have pics of the ground box you made? How close to my DIY build recipe, including cable is your build? What did the ground box do for the performance of your system?

Thank for the detailed answer .

I will not split the RCA as you wrote it will not bring any improvement .
If I try to give a percentage of improvement for each of the three modifications I have made :
10% for emi tape on ac and iec plugs
60% for Furutech nano on speaker cable
30% for one grounding box

1 - Agree with the priority, effect of Furutech nano is huge on my system , I have to go ahead and treat everything . You wrote several time that it is non conductive and I can safely treat contact also in my server ( ram connector , pcie connector … ) .
A few questions about Furutech Nano , how often do you have to clean and treat again ? I have read on the net may be once a year ?
Is it cleaned easily with isopropyl alcool ?
I am a little reluctant to treat the hot pin on rca connector as it will go inside the equipment and could be almost impossible to clean after treatment….

Is it useful to treat also AC connections ?

2- Lowering noise on AC home wiring . I am living in France in Bordeaux . I already did things on my ac . I have a dedicated line coming straight from the home current panel . I have used high quality Cardas heavy gauge cable .I have also a dedicated ground ( with 4 ground rods ) for my audio system .

Our electrical outlet are of similar type as @EDhaenens , but even smaller with no metallic receptacle but plastic one . I have to figure how to use Rochelle salt on these as obviously treating with a wrap around the wire is difficult to do right .
I did try a 3g Rochelle salt wrap along the fuse of audio system in my home ac panel . I removed it as I did not like the result .

3- I have all the equipment to make Rochelle salt mini wrap , for gbc wrap I miss the tourmaline sand , I did not found supplier at reasonable cost . I will try the black tourmaline powder from Japan that @EDhaenens suggested to me .
For my ground box I did use the same recipe as the one you suggest . I did use all the ingredients you recommend but with some different sourcing .
The weight of my grounding box is about 3kg as i am using the magnetite powder from inoxia mixed with some magnetite sand from moertel . Also I did not found tourmaline sand so I use small stone and larger stone .
Shungite is also fairly large stone .
It is for me almost impossible to do gb tuning as the magnetite powder is staining everything .
Box , wiring , connectors , feet is what you recommend.

 

[cdacosta]

Thank for the detailed answer .

I will not split the RCA as you wrote it will not bring any improvement .
If I try to give a percentage of improvement for each of the three modifications I have made :
10% for emi tape on ac and iec plugs
60% for Furutech nano on speaker cable
30% for one grounding box

1 - Agree with the priority, effect of Furutech nano is huge on my system , I have to go ahead and treat everything . You wrote several time that it is non conductive and I can safely treat contact also in my server ( ram connector , pcie connector … ) .
A few questions about Furutech Nano , how often do you have to clean and treat again ? I have read on the net may be once a year ?
Is it cleaned easily with isopropyl alcool ?
I am a little reluctant to treat the hot pin on rca connector as it will go inside the equipment and could be almost impossible to clean after treatment….

Is it useful to treat also AC connections ?

2- Lowering noise on AC home wiring . I am living in France in Bordeaux . I already did things on my ac . I have a dedicated line coming straight from the home current panel . I have used high quality Cardas heavy gauge cable .I have also a dedicated ground ( with 4 ground rods ) for my audio system .

Our electrical outlet are of similar type as @EDhaenens , but even smaller with no metallic receptacle but plastic one . I have to figure how to use Rochelle salt on these as obviously treating with a wrap around the wire is difficult to do right .
I did try a 3g Rochelle salt wrap along the fuse of audio system in my home ac panel . I removed it as I did not like the result .

3- I have all the equipment to make Rochelle salt mini wrap , for gbc wrap I miss the tourmaline sand , I did not found supplier at reasonable cost . I will try the black tourmaline powder from Japan that @EDhaenens suggested to me .
For my ground box I did use the same recipe as the one you suggest . I did use all the ingredients you recommend but with some different sourcing .
The weight of my grounding box is about 3kg as i am using the magnetite powder from inoxia mixed with some magnetite sand from moertel . Also I did not found tourmaline sand so I use small stone and larger stone .
Shungite is also fairly large stone .
It is for me almost impossible to do gb tuning as the magnetite powder is staining everything .
Box , wiring , connectors , feet is what you recommend.

Well there is a lot to unpack based on what you wrote. I will touch on the highlights for I do not have a lot of time to dissect everything tonight.

* The ground box definitely should have a bigger impact than just using Nano Liquid on the speaker cable connections. I think I know why or the reasons why the ground box is not performing the way it should. This I will have to address at a another time if you like. Remember this, "every part of the ground box build" effects the performance.

* Where does your dedicated audio AC line breaker terminate? At the breaker panel with your other circuit breakers? And lastly how long is the run from breaker to the system's AC outlets?

* As mentioned before, the first thing I would do is treat "all" mechanical connections in your system with Nano Liquid. All means, all. Including power cable connections and outlet contacts. Both the positive and negative contacts on RCA connectors and component jacks. All RJ45 contacts on the cables and component jack contacts, etc., etc. Think of the performance gains you got from only the speaker cable contacts, then imagine the entire system. Goal is minimize any and all noise that will mask data on a recording. Mechanical micro arching between connections will mask data on a recording. Remember, very light application, meaning no pooling of the Nano Liquid.

* Yes 91% isopropyl alcohol will easily remove Nano Liquid from the connector. You do not have to reapply Nano Liquid unless you un-plug and re-plug connections several times.

 

[jean-michel6]

Well there is a lot to unpack based on what you wrote. I will touch on the highlights for I do not have a lot of time to dissect everything tonight.

* The ground box definitely should have a bigger impact than just using Nano Liquid on the speaker cable connections. I think I know why or the reasons why the ground box is not performing the way it should. This I will have to address at a another time if you like. Remember this, "every part of the ground box build" effects the performance.

* Where does your dedicated audio AC line breaker terminate? At the breaker panel with your other circuit breakers? And lastly how long is the run from breaker to the system's AC outlets?

* As mentioned before, the first thing I would do is treat "all" mechanical connections in your system with Nano Liquid. All means, all. Including power cable connections and outlet contacts. Both the positive and negative contacts on RCA connectors and component jacks. All RJ45 contacts on the cables and component jack contacts, etc., etc. Think of the performance gains you got from only the speaker cable contacts, then imagine the entire system. Goal is minimize any and all noise that will mask data on a recording. Mechanical micro arching between connections will mask data on a recording. Remember, very light application, meaning no pooling of the Nano Liquid.

* Yes 91% isopropyl alcohol will easily remove Nano Liquid from the connector. You do not have to reapply Nano Liquid unless you un-plug and re-plug connections several times.

Maybe a more detailed feedback :

- What I did heard with the Furutech nano on speaker cable is clearly a more dynamic sound , better bass , and somewhat better image , transparency improved a little .
This is clearly the sign of a better conductiviTy at contact points and to a lesser extent reduction of noise .
- For the ground box , transparency first was improved then stereo image and to a lesser extent the other criteria . I think that the ground box is more effective to reduce unwanted noise .
Any how this Furutech nano is great product and looking for your comments on improving my gb .

* Where does your dedicated audio AC line breaker terminate? At the breaker panel with your other circuit breakers? And lastly how long is the run from breaker to the system's AC outlets?
Yes at the breaker panel with other circuit breaker . The run form the dedicated audio circuit breaker to my ac audio is about 7 meter long .

 

[EDhaenens]

Thank for the detailed answer .

I will not split the RCA as you wrote it will not bring any improvement .
If I try to give a percentage of improvement for each of the three modifications I have made :
10% for emi tape on ac and iec plugs
60% for Furutech nano on speaker cable
30% for one grounding box

1 - Agree with the priority, effect of Furutech nano is huge on my system , I have to go ahead and treat everything . You wrote several time that it is non conductive and I can safely treat contact also in my server ( ram connector , pcie connector … ) .
A few questions about Furutech Nano , how often do you have to clean and treat again ? I have read on the net may be once a year ?
Is it cleaned easily with isopropyl alcool ?
I am a little reluctant to treat the hot pin on rca connector as it will go inside the equipment and could be almost impossible to clean after treatment….

Is it useful to treat also AC connections ?

2- Lowering noise on AC home wiring . I am living in France in Bordeaux . I already did things on my ac . I have a dedicated line coming straight from the home current panel . I have used high quality Cardas heavy gauge cable .I have also a dedicated ground ( with 4 ground rods ) for my audio system .

Our electrical outlet are of similar type as @EDhaenens , but even smaller with no metallic receptacle but plastic one . I have to figure how to use Rochelle salt on these as obviously treating with a wrap around the wire is difficult to do right .
I did try a 3g Rochelle salt wrap along the fuse of audio system in my home ac panel . I removed it as I did not like the result .

3- I have all the equipment to make Rochelle salt mini wrap , for gbc wrap I miss the tourmaline sand , I did not found supplier at reasonable cost . I will try the black tourmaline powder from Japan that @EDhaenens suggested to me .
For my ground box I did use the same recipe as the one you suggest . I did use all the ingredients you recommend but with some different sourcing .
The weight of my grounding box is about 3kg as i am using the magnetite powder from inoxia mixed with some magnetite sand from moertel . Also I did not found tourmaline sand so I use small stone and larger stone .
Shungite is also fairly large stone .
It is for me almost impossible to do gb tuning as the magnetite powder is staining everything .
Box , wiring , connectors , feet is what you recommend.

I notice one or more sorbothane feet are not touching the surface they are supposed to be on. The ground boxes really should have a stable underground to offer maximum performance. Have you tried placing it directly on the floor?