[liamstrain]

Quote:

2) Audio engineers are not a way to measure anything, nor is there opinion to be trusted, I've done the job myself, play any new CD from the past 10 years and you'll easily realise
they don't give a fug about how music sounds.

 
If you think the engineers have much say in what goes out the door, you misunderstand the industry.

 

[jgray91]

Quote:

my evidence, - put my hand in my pocket, lots of Nordost and Townshend isolda in my main system, but then new it would cost $40k
 
2 wrong things posted here
 
1) Retail margin on cables is 25-45%  - no more unless they make them themselves
2) Audio engineers are not a way to measure anything, nor is there opinion to be trusted, I've done the job myself, play any new CD from the past 10 years and you'll easily realise
they don't give a fug about how music sounds.

 
Not an effective way to argue, IMO. I don't suppose you'd believe in a cult recruiter when he's saying you're not happy and you should join his cult to be happy? Also, the thing with "experience", "I do this longer than you", "you must listen it for yourselves", etc. is that it puts in the most obvious factor and variable in the arguments: that is each one of us is inherently different. Measurements are a way to eliminate/reduce this kinds of unstable variables/factors and provide a common ground for a lot of people.

 

[bellsprout]

thats cuz consumers dont give a ****
 
Quote:

2) Audio engineers are not a way to measure anything, nor is there opinion to be trusted, I've done the job myself, play any new CD from the past 10 years and you'll easily realise
they don't give a fug about how music sounds.

 

[DNZGamer]

Quote:

my evidence, - put my hand in my pocket, lots of Nordost and Townshend isolda in my main system, but then new it would cost $40k
 
2 wrong things posted here
 
1) Retail margin on cables is 25-45%  - no more unless they make them themselves
2) Audio engineers are not a way to measure anything, nor is there opinion to be trusted, I've done the job myself, play any new CD from the past 10 years and you'll easily realise
they don't give a fug about how music sounds.

I don't get how 2) is relevant to anything being discussed. 

First of all, it is a terrible and unfounded statement that you expect us to take your word for. Apparently no audio-engineers care about music and you have proof of this? Why are you complaining about scientific methods when your arguments aren't even founded in observable trends?

Secondly, measurements have nothing to do with music. It doesn't even have to be music. The point is whether there is an AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE of any kind and music isn't necessarily the best way to detect this.

Lastly, when has all scientific findings been limited to just audio engineers? Considering the amount of studies conducted with specifically audiophiles, musicians, regular consumers and any other relevant demographic, I don't understand why we are discussing audio engineers exclusively. 
 
Please provide evidence that:

a) audio engineers don't like music
b) people who love music could distinguish between cables. You offered what you considered proof, to play any CD. Maybe you can make me understand how my Born to Die album is clearly a demonstration of this as I clearly do not know what I am looking for.

 

[jnjn]

Quote:

 
Yup. This circle's been going 'round and 'round for over 30 years now. No reason to expect it will ever change.
 
se

You got that right.
Quote:

Here is one article with extensive measurements. The summary - with exception of one poorly designed speaker cable (whose problems were measurably bad - and does affect sound quality, causing a roll-off of the highs due to excessive inductance - a cable that wouldn't pass electronics 101) they all are dandy. 
 
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-face-off-1
 
e.g. cables can negatively affect sound in the audible range if they are so poorly designed as to not do their job (high resistance attenuates all frequencies, high inductance attenuates proportionally to the frequency, high/low capacitance doesn't really affect audio). A properly made cable - especially at headphone and interconnect lengths, really doesn't have an effect*.
 
*again - assuming someone didn't design a cable like a bonehead.

While there is some good content there, it is still important to consider what is the underlying reason for the article and even the website.  Going from the measurements to conclusions may not be really supported scientifically.  The same applies to IC's  and PC's used in an unbalanced system
 
j

 

[Prog Rock Man]

This article is a classic example of what the cable makers produce
 
https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil
 
It measures differences in cables. But then it fails to show those differences are audible and that the differences have a causal difference on variations in sound quality. It includes a biased sighted test and avoids blind testing.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

There's no "beating around the bush", we've been saying that they make no difference since this started. Seems rather direct to me.

Personally, I'll say there is a chance that they do, it's about the same likelihood that aliens have visited the Earth and abducted humans for probing. Which is probably a little better than angels imprinting the face of the Virgin Mary on toast, or massive cold water loving dinosaurs living in Scottish lakes.

 
Quote:

 
*shrug*
 
We have mountains of data showing no difference on all manner of cables and a wide range of prices, theories, and "proprietary connectors" etc. All that data countering false claims hasn't shut people up yet, I don't expect this would be any different...sadly.

 
 
This is why we keep going round in circles. It is wrong to say cables make no difference, they do at least to some people in some systems, where that difference is not consistent. The real issue is what causes that to work?

 

[DNZGamer]

Why do we care if there is an electrical difference or not? If cables really had any significant effect then there must be at least at least some cases where people could blindly identify them. The bottom line is expensive cables are simply not a sound purchase. 
 
You guys have moved away from the practical purpose of cable differences to things that are inconsequential to any known demographic of people listening to music.

 

[jnjn]

I see far too many articles out there purporting to "expose" the fallicies and the snake oil, and far too many claiming pseudoscience.
 
The AH and Pass articles are interesting, but there is more to it.
 
j

 

[DNZGamer]

No matter what they claim, if you don't believe them then and believe otherwise, simple testing will solve the question for you personally. I don't get why there is so much discussion on science and other things that just don't matter to the average listener. It only takes one person to prove that cables actually do make a difference yet with all the pro-cable audiophiles out there, not one has come out to refute this theory?
 
Again, whatever difference cables make it is obviously not worth any significant amount of money. I think running around in circles discussing semantics on whether there is a registered electrical difference or theoretical super senses is pointless. 

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

 
 
 
This is why we keep going round in circles. It is wrong to say cables make no difference, they do at least to some people in some systems, where that difference is not consistent. The real issue is what causes that to work?

 
You're playing semantics. The cables themselves are not responsible for any audible difference. This is what the data shows. If people hear differences, it is some factor other than the material/construction/properties of the cable.

 

[jnjn]

Quote:

No matter what they claim, if you don't believe them then and believe otherwise, simple testing will solve the question for you personally. I don't get why there is so much discussion on science and other things that just don't matter to the average listener. It only takes one person to prove that cables actually do make a difference yet with all the pro-cable audiophiles out there, not one has come out to refute this theory?
 
Again, whatever difference cables make it is obviously not worth any significant amount of money. I think running around in circles discussing semantics on whether there is a registered electrical difference or theoretical super senses is pointless. 

What exactly would I test? Testing is not "simple" despite what you may read.  Even Nelson's setup is sub par, especially when the discussion turns to t-line.
 
Why is it "science and other things that just don't matter to the average listener"???  If you do not wish "science" to be invoked, then perhaps asking the question in the "Sound Science" forum is a mistake.
 
Do not ask a question in the Sound Science forum then state that science just doesn't matter.
 
I personally do not consider large dollar cables worth it.  Honestly, I can design and make any cable to have any inductance, capacitance, or impedance I wish, so I've no need to purchase any pre-manufactured product.
 
As to "registered electrical difference", I can discuss that both in theory and in practice.  If you wish to do so, let me know.
 
j

 

[jnjn]

Quote:

 
You're playing semantics. The cables themselves are not responsible for any audible difference. This is what the data shows. If people hear differences, it is some factor other than the material/construction/properties of the cable.

Honestly, that may not be accurate.
 
What data?  If you mean electrical test data, I'm not that sure.  If you mean audibility data, I'm not sure.
 
There is always expectation bias, as well as the possibility that the audibility test regimen is inconsistent with normal listening.
 
j

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

Honestly, that may not be accurate.
 
What data?  If you mean electrical test data, I'm not that sure.  If you mean audibility data, I'm not sure.
 
There is always expectation bias, as well as the possibility that the audibility test regimen is inconsistent with normal listening.
 
j

 
I'd love to see information to correct my position. Honestly. Aside from those instances I noted above, where cables were made with very high inductance and caused frequency dependent attenuation, I have not seen data to countermand my statement. 
 
Likewise, I have not seen anything which effectively counters that test conditions (which are hugely variable) cannot be consistent with normal listening - or that the results, even if the conditions are inconsistent, affects the accuracy of the data.
 
I am always willing to learn, though. And will happily adjust my position if there is good reason to.  

 

[jnjn]

Quote:

 
I'd love to see information to correct my position. Honestly. Aside from those instances I noted above, where cables were made with very high inductance and caused frequency dependent attenuation, I have not seen data to countermand my statement. 
 
Likewise, I have not seen anything which effectively counters that test conditions (which are hugely variable) cannot be consistent with normal listening - or that the results, even if the conditions are inconsistent, affects the accuracy of the data.
 
I am always willing to learn, though. And will happily adjust my position if there is good reason to.  

As would I. 
 
The listening tests are not designed to consider the human adaptability with respect to image generation and localization.  Since this is a time varying adaptation response, and is not considered, the test designers are not considering all the confounders.
 
In any statistical design where the "desired outcome" is the prediction of the general population's response, it is extremely important the design be an absolute duplicate of the normal environment.  I see many audio test setups which do not meet this criteria.  When the setup does not do so, the use of the statistical analysis results of the test cannot be used to describe the general population.
 
Your statement "even if the conditions are inconsistent" and "accuracy of the data" can be mutually exclusive.  At the very least, the first guarantees the unreliability of the second.  Not that the data is guaranteed incorrect, just that it may not be reliable.  Even stating that amongst a scientific crowd would garner chuckles..
 
While high inductance can indeed cause rolloff, I consider that to be a poorly designed cable.  There can be far bigger issues with a low L cable when the terminating impedance unloads below open loop unity gain frequency of the amplifier.
 
j