Dilemma: Should I not believe any reviewers who talk about cables or just ignore that section of their review?
Jun 6, 2012 at 6:04 PM Post #976 of 1,790
EDIT: oh regarding the idea that speakers/headphones are the only things that matter -- I'm one of the nutcase audiophools who says that if you buy very good headphones and mass-market electronics, then what is you get is high-resolution headphones telling you how bad your electronics are.


I believed that too, until I did a line level matched comparison of a highly regarded $900 SACD player and a $125 average CD player. Not only were they identical when playing CDs, when the SACD layer was the same mix and master as the redbook layer, the SACD was no better either.
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 7:33 PM Post #977 of 1,790
I agree.  I think a lot of modestly priced gear sounds perfectly fine.  In a way this is a golden age for audio as electronics have become so good for so little money.  To me the main stumbling blocks left to worry about are transducers, and if you are using speakers, room acoustics. 
 
Wouldn't you know it?  The hardware industry is really learning how to get the issues sorted and along comes the "loudness war" to screw up so much of the current software.  
 
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 7:36 PM Post #978 of 1,790
If transducers are the trick, why are people still worrying about wires, DACs, amps and players?
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 8:14 PM Post #979 of 1,790
You've got me!  Frankly, I don't!  I think that once you get to a certain level of competence in your gear, the word "transparent" comes to mind, that it's not worth fussing about it any more.
 
Oddly enough, now that I've quit worrying about FOTM gear I find I'm listening much more to my system and having much more fun with it than I did before.  Go figure. 
 
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 8:20 PM Post #980 of 1,790
Quote:
If transducers are the trick, why are people still worrying about wires, DACs, amps and players?

 
Because there'd be nothing left of this "hobby" (talking about equipment here, not music) otherwise. There'd be no obsessions with inexplicable aims. Pick a few headphones for different tasks and be done. Oh, these people would be quite bored. And of course then there's inexplicable, unexaminable claims from the manufacturers which some people believe to be true. Just like some people believe in UFOs or Bigfoot. Crazy, but true. </rant>
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 8:31 PM Post #981 of 1,790
Quote:
 
Because there'd be nothing left of this "hobby" (talking about equipment here, not music) otherwise. There'd be no obsessions with inexplicable aims. Pick a few headphones for different tasks and be done. Oh, these people would be quite bored. And of course then there's inexplicable, unexaminable claims from the manufacturers which some people believe to be true. Just like some people believe in UFOs or Bigfoot. Crazy, but true. </rant>

 
What?  I do believe you're trampling over many a poor chap's journey to audio nirvana.  Maybe lighter pocketbooks are the key to enlightenment.  
cool.gif

 
Jun 6, 2012 at 8:41 PM Post #982 of 1,790
Quote:
You've got me!  Frankly, I don't!  I think that once you get to a certain level of competence in your gear, the word "transparent" comes to mind, that it's not worth fussing about it any more.
 
Oddly enough, now that I've quit worrying about FOTM gear I find I'm listening much more to my system and having much more fun with it than I did before.  Go figure. 
 

Well Said
 
Jun 6, 2012 at 10:16 PM Post #983 of 1,790
What?  I do believe you're trampling over many a poor chap's journey to audio nirvana.  Maybe lighter pocketbooks are the key to enlightenment.  :cool:


If that's the case, I'd be happy to help people reach smadhi. Just send me Amazon gift cards! My wish list for music is a mile long.
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 1:00 AM Post #984 of 1,790
Quote:
 
Because there'd be nothing left of this "hobby" (talking about equipment here, not music) otherwise. There'd be no obsessions with inexplicable aims. Pick a few headphones for different tasks and be done. Oh, these people would be quite bored. And of course then there's inexplicable, unexaminable claims from the manufacturers which some people believe to be true. Just like some people believe in UFOs or Bigfoot. Crazy, but true. </rant>

 
See, I figured out the trick:  Spend more time with another hobby!  :-D
 
Let's not forget actually listening to music either.
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 5:14 AM Post #985 of 1,790
This is kind of off-topic, but you know what bugs me about these sorts of disagreements, is that people act "tribal." I mean people band together in a group in order to oppose another group. I do not present myself as a specially enlightened human who is above this stuff, but I really enjoy dissolving barriers more than erecting them. Certain memes get repeated endlessly. Each side has standard jokes with standard punchlines about the other side, and they aren't particularly funny jokes to anyone not in the tribe. They are just "tribe bonding" jokes.
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 5:50 AM Post #986 of 1,790
Much of this remind me of witch trials that was a-priori... 
 

 
 
 
Quote:
 
From The Skeptics Dictionary

Research has…shown that the nocebo effect can reverse the body’s response to true medical treatment from positive to negative. (Root-Bernstein 1998)

A nocebo (Latin for “I will harm”) is something that should be ineffective but which causes symptoms of ill health. A nocebo effect is an ill effect caused by the suggestion or belief that something is harmful. The term ‘nocebo’ became popular in the 1990s. Prior to that, both pleasant and harmful effects thought to be due to the power of suggestion were usually referred to as being due to the placebo effect.

Because of ethical concerns, nocebos are not commonly used in medical practice or research. Thus, it is not unexpected that the nocebo effect is not well-established in the scientific literature. However, there are some anecdotes and some studies that are commonly appealed to in the literature to support its validity.

More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through their heads could produce a headache.

“Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about past experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause itchy rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys they were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree. Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy, itchy rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual poison did not react.” (Gardiner Morse, “The nocebo effect,” Hippocrates, November 1999, Hippocrates.com)

In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women with similar risk factors who didn’t believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. “Nocebos Contribute to a Host of Ills.” Journal of the American Medical Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might argue that the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk factors may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies better than the objective tests could reveal.]

C. K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may actually get sick and die because of their belief (“Hex Death: Voodoo Magic or Persuasion?” Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): 244-47).

“In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they believed to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized saltwater solution.”*

Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston’s Brigham and Women’s Hospital, found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of possible harmful side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of treatment (Barsky et al. 2002).

Since patients’ beliefs and fears may be generated by just about anything they come in contact with, it may well be that many things that are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the color of the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they use to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a patient in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the patient and have profound effects for good or for ill on their response to treatment.

 
Jun 7, 2012 at 12:08 PM Post #987 of 1,790
Sorry I haven't read the entire thread but the topic is interesting, I have been doing some research myself and I asked a pro about what he thought about this. Usually when I read threads about cables all people talk about is this or that cable sounding better than the other but nobody seems to know why which is why others point their fingers and say it must be the placebo effect then.
 
Now according to the guy I talked to, he explained to me that some of the high end cables for example are made out of pure silver or the best quality copper. Both these materials have different characteristics when passing through frequences that really can slightly change the sound of the actual headphone.
 
For example silver would make more bright (trebbled) frequencies and take away some from the bass (also because the headphone gets a little brighter some people exprience their headphone as more open as well), While copper does the opposite. So I think that people who have been changing cables might actually find a sound that they prefer more over what they were hearing over their stock cables or other cables they made a switch from.
 
Ofcourse a better sound would all come down the individual preferences, but I do believe people can hear differences
 
Just my 2 cents :)
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 12:10 PM Post #988 of 1,790
Quote:
Now according to the guy I talked to, he explained to me that some of the high end cables for example are made out of pure silver or the best quality copper. Both these materials have different characteristics when passing through frequences that really can slightly change the sound of the actual headphone.
 
For example silver would make more bright (trebbled) frequencies and take away some from the bass (also because the headphone gets a little brighter some people exprience their headphone as more open as well), While copper does the opposite. So I think that people who have been changing cables might actually find a sound that they prefer more over what they were hearing over their stock cables or other cables they made a switch from.
 

 
Unfortunately, the "pro" you talked to, does not understand the electrical properties of metals, or how audio signals are transmitted.
 
There are a few things that can affect the sound, but not the difference between copper, high quality copper, silver, etc. 
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 12:16 PM Post #989 of 1,790
Quote:
 
Unfortunately, the "pro" you talked to, does not understand the electrical properties of metals, or how audio signals are transmitted.
 
There are a few things that can affect the sound, but not the difference between copper, high quality copper, silver, etc. 

 
Hmm why not ? And what would you say could affect the sound in a cable? And yeah poorly shielded cables would degrade sound quality for sure but what other points you say matter more than being a copper or silver cable?
 
Jun 7, 2012 at 12:23 PM Post #990 of 1,790
A high capacitance, or inductance (inductance, especially) will affect the sound. High inductance will roll off the high frequencies.
 
The only difference between silver and copper, however, is resistance - which affects overall volume, but not highs versus lows, or detail/brightness/etc. And over short cables (like headphone cables and interconnects) the amount of difference in resistance is extremely small. To the point of not mattering at all. 
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top