Dilemma: Should I not believe any reviewers who talk about cables or just ignore that section of their review?
Jun 4, 2012 at 5:11 PM Post #886 of 1,790
Of course [COLOR=0000FF]equipment is vastly more accurate in seeing exact FR and THD+N.[/COLOR]

Talking about spatial stuff like Apple earbud versus STAX, or IEM driver placement like here

,

and [COLOR=800080]this[/COLOR], [COLOR=FF0000]this.[/COLOR]

Yes.

But spacial perception is very much a psychoacoustical phenomenon. Trying to analyze it using measuring equipment is close to impossible.
This is a fact which we have to accept.

Can you other than spacial perception -- which is immensely complicated -- give another example?
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 5:13 PM Post #887 of 1,790
Exactly, is the -150dB distortion versus -100dB on a DAC or op-amp chip relevant?  Have they both crossed the border which we've drawn on thin air, or not?  If they have and Electrical Engineers detect differences via listening etc., where in the chip do the differences lie?  In the THD+N or somewhere else?  Where have the thresholds of audibility been defined?  Are the thresholds accurate?  Within which parameters?  Are those parameters total?  Via which evidence? Etc.
 
Like I said there's no hope until you can record venue A, play it in venue B, and they sound identical, haha.

 
Experiments indicate it's in their head...

 
Sometimes Chinese medicine is in your head, sometimes it's not.  You need to experiment to find out.  Link to experiments on ES9023 versus ES9018, or NE5532 versus AD797 / OPA627, afaik they don't exist.  So the medicine is... not tested. =p
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 5:25 PM Post #888 of 1,790
Jun 4, 2012 at 5:34 PM Post #889 of 1,790

Those two posts do not really prove to the initial statement. You claimed that "Human hearing in acoustic audio can detect dozens of variables more quickly and accurately than the $20,000+ equipment I linked above.".
Making comparisons to visual stimuli, although a nice metaphor, is just flawed. Hearing is completely different from vision. You could just as well start comparing it to taste/smell or to touch.

The article you linked just shows that there are even more measurable factors that can be audible than most people would commonly think of. The measurements themselves are still relatively easy to make.
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 6:03 PM Post #890 of 1,790
I can see better than an electron microscope, dammit!
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 6:09 PM Post #891 of 1,790
Making comparisons to visual stimuli, although a nice metaphor, is just flawed. Hearing is completely different from vision.

 
So are you saying NwAv's various comparisons to video, and articles like this, are just flawed? - http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html#toc_s
 
Or, is video a good example, when it suits you?  Video is electricity -> photons, Audio is electricity -> air, they operate at Hertz rates, which you can find in christmas lights, or Skullcandy headphones, this is called frequency response, are you following me so far?
 

 
 
Those two posts do not really prove to the initial statement. You claimed that "Human hearing in acoustic audio can detect dozens of variables more quickly and accurately than the $20,000+ equipment I linked above.".

 
Can you link to evidence on your statement that spatial differences exist between the Apple earbud and SR-009 or are we just playing with unvalidated theory now?
 
If you want another example, a human can identify 100,000 unique voices played back via videos much faster than you'll be able to identify them to the correct persons with your data, do you want me to link to evidence on this?  Data first truth later right?
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:05 PM Post #893 of 1,790
Quote:
If you want another example, a human can identify 100,000 unique voices played back via videos much faster than you'll be able to identify them to the correct persons with your data

 
 
The point of measurements is not to match a unique voice to its specific person. The data can tell the specific differences between them faster and more accurately. Who it is, is irrelevant for the purposes we need from them (that's an exercise in something other than measurement - pattern/voice recognition for instance...not just finding and cataloging the type and amplitude of differences). 
 
To use an instrument example of what I am saying. Two violins are compared and the measurements show clear differences in frequency, harmonics and sustain. Those are measurable, precise, and repeatable. That you or I could identify *which* of them is the Yamaha versus the Stradivarius, is irrelevant to the measurements, which remain as exact as before - and which are more precise than what you or I could ever identify - despite our human ability to recognize the owner of that sound. 
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:20 PM Post #894 of 1,790
Quote:
Yes.
But spacial perception is very much a psychoacoustical phenomenon. Trying to analyze it using measuring equipment is close to impossible.
This is a fact which we have to accept.
Can you other than spacial perception -- which is immensely complicated -- give another example?

 
It's hard but not impossible.  It's about how inter-aural time and level differences vary with the position of the source.
 
Quote:
Sometimes Chinese medicine is in your head, sometimes it's not.  You need to experiment to find out.  Link to experiments on ES9023 versus ES9018, or NE5532 versus AD797 / OPA627, afaik they don't exist.  So the medicine is... not tested. =p

 
I have personally conducted thousands of studies on such matters, including all the chips you mention, which prove you wrong.  Unfortunately I'm not allowed to show them to you for contractual reasons.  They still exist until you prove they don't.
 
evil_smiley.gif

 
Maybe the reason that opamps sound different to you is because your home is built over an underground colony of Audio Gnomes that tinker with your gear whenever you're not home.  Have you set up hidden cameras to test for that?  You can't rule it out until you do!
 
very_evil_smiley.gif

 
See how that kind of thing works?  There's no reason to expect some previously unknown difference to appear when any two chips are tested against each other because we already have plenty of evidence supporting the idea that making the usual THD, IMD crossover distortion, ensuring a high enough slew rate, etc good enough is what actually matters and that people readily "hear" imaginary differences between even the same thing heard twice when provided with the proper stimulus.  Do we have to drain Loch Ness before we say that people looking for a monster in it are wasting their time or is the fact that the lake doesn't contain enough food for a breading population of such large animal enough to draw a reasonable conclusion?  Is my claim about a large body of confidential research too suspiciously ad hoc to be believed?  Is the fact the the existence of gnomes has not been confirmed and is not likely based on what we know of biology enough to discount them as a potential factor?
 
You could be right kiteki.  Any madman with a sandwich board on a street corner proclaiming the end of the world could be right.  The question isn't just why should anyone believe you but why anyone should even bother taking you seriously.  Would you even bother to thoroughly investigate the ravings of a madman before discounting them as crap?  Most people usually require some evidence before even spending a small portion or their mortality on investigating some random assertion and rightly so.  Most new ideas turn out to be wrong.
 
That doesn't mean you should never accept new ideas, only that they should be supported by evidence first and that the amount of evidence required should be proportional to the idea's implications.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't test new ideas either but there are still standards.  Testing every stupid idea that someone comes up with regardless of it's plausibility is not only boring but a massive waste of resources.  If you think there's a decent chance of finding something new or if you're just interested in doing it then go ahead and test it yourself.  If you can't then convince someone else that it's worth testing.  Calling someone out for testing an implausible claim themselves is like calling someone out for ignoring the madman proclaiming the end of the world and not thoroughly investigating his doomsday scenario.  In both cases prior experience predicts a general trend.  The probability of any individual claim being true along with the general exclusivity of the individual claims mean that due to the miniscule chance of any one being true you're better off treating it as false until someone else demonstrates otherwise.
 
That may sound complicated but that's really how most people deal with such things even if only unconsciously.  That's why I used the "madman on the street example".  They're mostly ignored and people are correct in doing so.  Of course discoveries can be made by madness that pursues avenues everyone else rightly assumes are improbable based on current data as well as genius which sees what no one else saw before but that's hardly an argument for madness as productive tool of discovery given it's hit rate.  The bottom line is that if you want to prove that everything we think we know about audio reproduction is wrong then you're going to need some rather interesting evidence just to get most people to take your claim seriously.
 
Quote:
Oh look I just found the differences between AD797 and OPA627
 
Why is it not in the THD+N or FR oh noes my snow kingdom of science in the sky is melting help meeee

 
Do you even know what those graphs mean kiteki?
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:28 PM Post #896 of 1,790
Quote:
 
Jitter really took a long time to be accepted by AES, but continuous objective proof and test change their minds eventually. 

 
Yep, that's what I was getting at.
Thanks for the comment!
Quote:
 
 
thus, "If it is truly audible, then it can be shown on paper" is equivalent to saying, "If it can't be shown on paper, it is not truly audible." 
 

 
Yes sir, that's basically what I was trying to say.
Thanks for the clarification.
If you can't measure it, then it doesn't exist? Puh-leeeeze!
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:31 PM Post #897 of 1,790
Quote:
If you can't measure it, then it doesn't exist? Puh-leeeeze!

 
 
No, that is NOT what I am saying. I'm saying if you cannot measure it, then it is not audible. 
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:36 PM Post #898 of 1,790
Quote:
 
 
No, that is NOT what I am saying. I'm saying if you cannot measure it, then it is not audible. 

I'll stick with my first answer.
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:37 PM Post #899 of 1,790
Then the burden is on you to show that there are things which are audible, which we cannot measure. 
 
Jun 4, 2012 at 7:41 PM Post #900 of 1,790
The voices in my head are audible but can't be measured!
 

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