[liamstrain]

Quote:

Blind yep. Cables handed to me without brand, material or price. Hearing same 5 tracks. same volume. Picked the one that I liked without even knowing the price, rand , or material of the cable.

 
That is not a blind test.

 

[bmiamihk]

True I have eyes and have you dont a blind test? How many cables did you try?
Quote:

 
That is not a blind test.

 

[liamstrain]

I've tried dozens over the years. Including 4 as part of a properly conducted blind test. I have done comparisons on headphone cables, speaker cables, usb cables, and interconnects. Both for my own personal system, and for professional mastering systems. 
 
At this point, I feel confident in the experience I have had, and the science and measurements that exist, that I no longer feel compelled to try the next variation on the same old thing, that someone brings to my attention. 
 
When your experiences mesh with the scientific theory, and the objective data on the subject - then by all means use them. When experience differs from all the rest, is when you need to look deeper at why there is a discrepancy. It is rare that you discard the data until you've done all you can to eliminate possible errors and biases in experiential testing. Something you have not even attempted. 

 

[EthanWiner]

Quote:

I've been hoping for a long time that a book like that existed. Now I know it does.
If only it weren't that expensive, since I would absolutely love to read it.

 
I understand, and I didn't set the price. But it's a huge book with 739 pages (including three bonus chapters online), plus 3-1/2 hours of video. So it's still a great value IMO. You could spend 50 times that at a recording school and leave with less knowledge.

 
--Ethan

 

[Tilpo]

I understand, and I didn't set the price. But it's a huge book with 739 pages (including three bonus chapters online), plus 3-1/2 hours of video. So it's still a great value IMO. You could spend 50 times that at a recording school and leave with less knowledge.

--Ethan

Very true. I will definitely buy it, maybe next month or so, but at the moment I need my money for other things.

Looking forward to reading it.


Edit: I just pre-ordered it from Amazon UK, it is estimated to be delivered in 10 days.

 

[DNZGamer]

Quote:

Blind yep. Cables handed to me without brand, material or price. Hearing same 5 tracks. same volume. Picked the one that I liked without even knowing the price, rand , or material of the cable.

 
People can easily make up differences when listening to the same cable, let alone cables they already know are different. Mind cannot be trusted for such measurements.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

The evidence strongly suggests that any difference is in the mind of the listener and is not inherent of the cable itself. So any review is only really a descriptive of what the reviewer heard and is not guaranteed to be replicated in any way. So another person may hear no difference. Another may hear a 'brighter sound' rather than the reviewer's descriptive of a 'darker sound'.
 
It is true that people have listened to the same cable in ABX blind testing and reported differences.

 

[avkdh]

Why do some insist that one MUST try  different cables personally and then decide? There´s no need to try everything personally to be convinced if something is true or not,  it´s quite irrational to suggest so.

 

[liamstrain]

If your preferred method of dealing with the world is to ignore facts, then it makes sense that every possible variation on the same idea, would be a new mystery and full of possibility. "This cable, might be different!" These are the people who will constantly shift goal posts, and require a refutation for every example they dream up - they will never accept theory backed by data, deduction, logic or inference. Only personal experience matters, and with no other criteria - every single possible thing must be tested personally - otherwise "how can you know for sure?"

 

[Warpkitty]

There's an old stereophile interview with Bob Carver:

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/290bob_carver/index.html

"I've done a series of converging experiments, the results of which teach me that copper wire may well be equivalent to silver wire. But I'll tell you, in the case of the Silver Seven, if there was even the remotest possibility, unseen by me and undetectable by me, that silver would be better, I know one thing for sure:
There's no better wire than silver wire!"

So even though Bob can't measure a difference he just "knows" it will be better!

This means to me that the psychoacoustic effects of cables, tweaks, and whatever play a pretty large role in how a listener perceives sound. So I suspect that has a lot to do with the debate.

For me, when I was younger I got pretty sucked into the Naim and Linn thing and put together a system based on being sold, what I now consider to be, a bill of goods.

Great sounding system sure, but I probably could have done it up with a cheaper Technics and Sansui thing ... Keeping the speakers the same. Yet I'm compelled to want to believe good quality interconnects make a difference as do fancy amps and source components.

But before I pull the trigger on high end stuff I like to read the objectivist arguments like those done by he who cannot be named and the Audio Critic. What I tend to do now is only take seriously the reviews of gear that have been through a dScope or Audio Precison system and I can see the specs. Unfortunately that makes the hobby somewhat boring. Saves me money though.

Of course I still go to the subjectivist side now and then. FedEx informs me that my Woo WA2 will be delivered sometime tomorrow. And I've spent the morning researching RCA to 1/4 inch adapters and cables to hook up the amp to my MOTU audio interface, when I really ought to have just gone to the local guitar shop and bought some $1.29 adapter and called it a day.

 

[juantendo8]

Quote:

Why do some insist that one MUST try  different cables personally and then decide? There´s no need to try everything personally to be convinced if something is true or not,  it´s quite irrational to suggest so.

 
Well, it's not like anyone is obligated to try equipment before they buy it, but it is the rational thing to do when one is buying something expensive and/or as controversial as aftermarket cables. The main two reasons IMO are:
 
1. Different people really do hear different things. It may very well be a matter of the brain rather than of the ears.
2. You (the buyer) and specifically your wallet are the ones with much to lose if you end up buying gear that is ineffective, inappropriate, or just not enjoyable.

 

[avkdh]

Quote:

 
Well, it's not like anyone is obligated to try equipment before they buy it, but it is the rational thing to do when one is buying something expensive and/or as controversial as aftermarket cables. The main two reasons IMO are:
 
1. Different people really do hear different things. It may very well be a matter of the brain rather than of the ears.
2. You (the buyer) and specifically your wallet are the ones with much to lose if you end up buying gear that is ineffective, inappropriate, or just not enjoyable.

 
The rational thing to do would be to try different products that we know can make a difference in sound, from a rational perspective there´s no need to personally try expensive cables because there's no evidence to support the idea that they can make a difference in sound (unless of course the cable had some serious flaw or it was intentionally build to be less accurate than a normal "good enough" cable).  I don't have to go to space and personally see the earth shape to know it's round...

 

[Tilpo]

Here's a bit of controversy for your brains to digest:


People can buy cables if they want to. If they think it will makes an improvement, and after noting they do hear improvements, then let them be. They will physically hear improvements, there is no single doubt about that. I think that cable believers suffer from epidemic lying is highly improbable.

Whether or not this perceived improvement is a manifestation of some form of expectation bias is irrelevant. As long as the buyer himself is satisfied with the product there is no problem, and will only serve as useful money circulation in the economy.



The ones who have become convinced that cables do not cause improvement in sound quality can just peacefully ignore the believers and live happily ever after.



Perhaps the only ones at a loss are the middle group that is unsure which side of the argument to believe. They may feel as if they lack something without buying better cables, while at the same time feeling that buying cables might be a waste of money.

 

[avkdh]

Quote:

Here's a bit of controversy for your brains to digest:
People can buy cables if they want to. If they think it will makes an improvement, and after noting they do hear improvements, then let them be. They will physically hear improvements, there is no single doubt about that. I think that cable believers suffer from epidemic lying is highly improbable.
Whether or not this perceived improvement is a manifestation of some form of expectation bias is irrelevant. As long as the buyer himself is satisfied with the product there is no problem, and will only serve as useful money circulation in the economy.
The ones who have become convinced that cables do not cause improvement in sound quality can just peacefully ignore the believers and live happily ever after.
Perhaps the only ones at a loss are the middle group that is unsure which side of the argument to believe. They may feel as if they lack something without buying better cables, while at the same time feeling that buying cables might be a waste of money.

It becomes relevant when they start recommending others to buy such cables. 
 
example: "This is a problem with the cable in the box. Good quality third party cables really sort this problem out. Sennheiser should really be ashamed of shipping that cable with such a premium pair of headphones. A good, relatively cheap upgrade option would be the Cardas cable." 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/608699/does-it-get-much-better-than-the-hd800/45

 

[Tilpo]

It becomes relevant when they start recommending others to buy such cables. 

example: "This is a problem with the cable in the box. Good quality third party cables really sort this problem out. Sennheiser should really be ashamed of shipping that cable with such a premium pair of headphones. A good, relatively cheap upgrade option would be the Cardas cable." 


http://www.head-fi.org/t/608699/does-it-get-much-better-than-the-hd800/45

People who do not believe cables make a difference ignore such statements. People who do believe in cables might welcome such statements, or at the very least find them relevant.

Like I said. This is only a problem to the people who are 'in the middle' and not sure which side to believe. They might feel unsure whether or not cables make a difference, and this insecurity can definitely affect listening experience.
If they in the end buy the cable and find the perceived improvement in sound quality to be reasonable for the amount of money spent, then they, as a consumer, are satisfied. No harm done.

The only situation in which there is harm is when someone buys a cable, but reports no differences, or at the least not large enough to warrant the purchase of the cable. But experience tells me that this group is a rather rare one.