Difference between good and bad cd players?
Apr 17, 2007 at 11:59 PM Post #46 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Where the differences still exist the you can generally find real measurable differences to explain the perceptual differences.


The perceptual differences when swapping two DAC boards on a Zhaolu are not subtle. Can't this imply different waveforms are generated ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That we can detect differences at such high levels of performance is my point of query...


Not sure I got this right.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 1:09 AM Post #47 of 107
Nyquist basically says that if you sample at 2f, you have sufficient information to reconstruct the original wave perfectly. It does not say that a DAC must do this, or even that it is possible in the real world. As has been pointed out, this is indeed not the case, and compromises must be made. Further, no real-world system is perfect to begin with, and the compromises, errors, and noise will combine in different ways given a different device structure. As has been mentioned, there are many different philosophies behind approaching this problem (R2R, ΔΣ, etc.), let alone individual implementations.

I do believe that digital and transistor-based equipment is far superiour to analog gear, but I don't see why it's so hard to believe that different devices will sound different. In the real world, nothing is perfect and randomness is inherent in everything, digital systems leverage statistics to factor it out, but analog systems do not, and a DAC is largely an analog device. How this randomness affects the signal will differ widely between implementations. Despite how near-perfect the implementation looks on paper, the real world will interfere and how that happens is what makes different devices sound different.
 
Apr 18, 2007 at 2:22 PM Post #48 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by error401 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I do believe that digital and transistor-based equipment is far superiour to analog gear, but I don't see why it's so hard to believe that different devices will sound different. In the real world, nothing is perfect and randomness is inherent in everything, digital systems leverage statistics to factor it out, but analog systems do not, and a DAC is largely an analog device. How this randomness affects the signal will differ widely between implementations. Despite how near-perfect the implementation looks on paper, the real world will interfere and how that happens is what makes different devices sound different.


I think the question for me is "how not quite perfect is the result" i.e how far off the theoretically possible is the actual i.e where differences are reliably heard how different are the measurable patterns and parameters.

One could look at this as input-----process-----output, the input is the analog waveform the output is the analog waveform and the process is ADC and DAC stages.

So what is the difference between the start and finish ? How much is the final filtered/antilaliased/reconstructed wave different from the start.

Seriously some actual before and after graphs would be interesting. In the famous Ivor Tiefenbrun Boston Acoustic Societyexpts the venerable TT manufacturer could not detect the presence of a AD/DA chain added after the analog output from a TT. This was an 1982 system that was 16 bits (theoretical). Listening tests elsewhere have shown that detecting the difference between an analog signal and the same signal digitised and recorded onto humble red book CD can be extremely difficult.
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 10:21 PM Post #49 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by bordins /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Maybe you may get confused a bit. Given we feed the same track on a CD, I don't think two DAC chips willl produce the same waveform because they make different sonics heard by listeners.
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That is a classic example of the logical fallacy called "begging the question", also known as "circular reasoning".

See ya
Steve
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 10:30 PM Post #50 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by bordins /img/forum/go_quote.gif
if you are tested against one of your favorite music tracks that you listen regularly on your system (over a hundred or perhap a thousand times), it will be very easy for you to detect any subtle difference in the song being played.


I've detected differences when none have existed. For instance, I've listened to a CD when I was feeling blue and it sounded lifeless and flat. The same CD sounded bright and beautiful on a day when I was feeling upbeat. That has nothing to do with the equipment, but it does affect this sort of anecdotal perceptual test. That's why I was interested in seeing tests that isolated the DAC specifically as the source of the difference. If it doesn't show up on a scope as significantly different, I don't see how it can sound different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bordins /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This is my proposition that explains two different DAC chips produce different sounds. You can detect sonic changes in your favorite songs. The way cognitive scientists look at sounds is not through the physical waveform but human perception instead.


You need to isolate the cause of the difference. Otherwise, you're falling into the logical trap of "confusing cause and effect".

See ya
Steve
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 11:07 PM Post #51 of 107
I'd like to see some graphs presented in this thread. If mods make a difference, it ought to be measurable. If there are no measurable differences on the electronics end, then I think it's safe to say that the 'improvement' is psychological.

"It just sounds better" is not a sufficient argument for me, as phychology obviously play a role in music listening, and I'm not going to spend $500 on a new source because some guy happened to have an endorphin surge the day he got his new DAC.
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Apr 19, 2007 at 11:07 PM Post #52 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Infact, I already got some equipment... Just updated my sig, so I hope it'll all be there.

I figure I'll need a new amp to play dts-sound. The DVD-player is total and utter crap (image hangs!). The two speakers could stay, but they'll probably be out of proportion with the new speakers witch will probably need to be smaller.
I'm also thinking about buying a headphone amp later on...

And that's all!
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If you're mainly into listening to film sound tracks then I'd wait for Denon et al to come up with a decent Blu Ray/ HD-DVD player and also wait for a HDMI 1.3 equipped amp ...expect these around June/July of 2007. I would definitely have all five or seven speaker the same, or at least have the same tweeters.

If you want to listen to music, then forget the surround sound nonsense and invest in a decent 2 channel system. The CD player quality does matter not only for the retrieval of digits side but also the DAC and the analogue side as well. Better still but a good turntable and invest in vinyl and buy a decent FM tuner on eBay ... the transmissions in Norway are superb.
 
Apr 19, 2007 at 11:15 PM Post #53 of 107
Dept_of_Alchemy;2889396 said:
I'd like to see some graphs presented in this thread. If mods make a difference, it ought to be measurable. If there are no measurable differences on the electronics end, then I think it's safe to say that the 'improvement' is psychological.
QUOTE]

..wonder if someone can come up with a graph to prove that pepsi is better than coke?

I'ev listened to many source components within my system, and there are huge differences. Music is an extremely complex signal,and the perception of music and all the emotions it contains is yet more complex. Some are more sensitive than other to changes. Hence horses for courses, you need to listen for yourself before you lay your money down.
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 12:10 AM Post #54 of 107
SubseaTree;2889415 said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'd like to see some graphs presented in this thread. If mods make a difference, it ought to be measurable. If there are no measurable differences on the electronics end, then I think it's safe to say that the 'improvement' is psychological.
QUOTE]

..wonder if someone can come up with a graph to prove that pepsi is better than coke?

I'ev listened to many source components within my system, and there are huge differences. Music is an extremely complex signal,and the perception of music and all the emotions it contains is yet more complex. Some are more sensitive than other to changes. Hence horses for courses, you need to listen for yourself before you lay your money down.



its so rare for a new member to just "GET IT".. you will have a very rewarding journey.
k1000smile.gif


Many member takes eons to understand that everyone hears differently and react to different things differently; many still don't get it, instead relying on their EE class/experience.
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 12:36 AM Post #55 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by SubseaTree /img/forum/go_quote.gif
..wonder if someone can come up with a graph to prove that pepsi is better than coke?


I bet there are measurable differences between pepsi and coke (in fact, if you read the wikipedia entry on Coke you'll find that more people prefer Pepsi because it contains more sugar, more lemon oil, less orange oil and use vanillin rather than vanilla). What I'm saying is that those differences are measurable, and the differences are large enough to be perceived. 0.001%versus 0.002%THD or -105db versus -110db noise floor I understand are beyond the resolution of our organs...
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 12:52 AM Post #56 of 107
chesebert;2889529 said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by SubseaTree /img/forum/go_quote.gif

its so rare for a new member to just "GET IT".. you will have a very rewarding journey.
k1000smile.gif


Many member takes eons to understand that everyone hears differently and react to different things differently; many still don't get it, instead relying on their EE class/experience.



That everyone hears differently is more or less obvious but doesnt really change the debate here, which is how two things that do the same thing using pretty much the same technology (give or take) come to sound fundamentally different, if indeed they do. This curiosity doesnt in the least bit hinder my profound enjoyment of music. If two things really do reliably sound different then this should be pretty measurable. If two things are measurably the same then "consistently" sounding different seems a bit odd.

If two DAC chips really sound different then there must be a logical reason for it , it seems that looking for differences in the waveforms is a reasonable place to start ?
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 1:59 AM Post #57 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by SubseaTree /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Music is an extremely complex signal,and the perception of music and all the emotions it contains is yet more complex. Some are more sensitive than other to changes. Hence horses for courses, you need to listen for yourself before you lay your money down.


Either music is a signal, and therefore the object of perception, or it is a sensation, and therefore the experience of perceiving. Signals do not contain emotions (unless you want to talk neurophysiology). The signal is undoubtedly extremely complex; however, we have developed tools that can detect, measure, and analyze the electrical signals that create, through a transducer, the air pressures that are converted into sound in the ear with far more accuracy, definition, and reliability than the ear. Audible differences can be measured; unmeasured differences cannot be audible.

That said, there is a distinction between audible differences in a signal and quality differences in a sensation. You want a graph to prove that Pepsi tastes better than Coke; I say that such a graph cannot exist, because Coke tastes better. We could measure the differences--even graph them!--but to interpret those differences we would need to refer to our own experiences.

A perfectly flat frequency response is not necessarily the most enjoyable to listen to. A system that increases amplitude in the 2.5 kHz range and rolls off above 15 khz might sound more relaxed and laid back, but such a system will measure with a poor THD+N value. Some tube amps have an output impedance that will interact with fancy cables, causing "distortion" but really acting as a filter that makes listening more enjoyable. We cannot measure "good sound." So, yes, anyone should listen to a component--in their own system--before plunking down large bucks.

A DAC component isn't dependent solely on the integrated circuit that does the actual D/A conversion. All the other necessary electronics, mentioned earlier in this thread, can affect the signal--and thus the sound. And any audible difference should be able to be measured.

But not many people run around measuring stereo equipment. I doubt the tools are cheap to buy, and require some EE background to use properly. There isn't much demand for measurements: measuring well isn't a part of the high-end market. It should be. Yet most consumers conflate their experience of something sounding different with a belief of actual difference in the signal, and discard objective measurements and scientific understanding--and their wallets--in lieu of beliefs founded on emotions, expectations, and marketing cues.

So, how to make a decision? Looking at a component will provide some indication. Crowded, single-sided, poorly-soldered circuit boards indicate that the designer made cost- rather than quality-based choices. Designs that show less concern for low cost will probably measure better, as a perfect measurement is what the designer is aiming for (unless you're talking about boutique audiophile stuff). The signal is only part of a component: how does it look and feel, and how easy is it to use? Aesthetics are an important part of my listening routine, and affect my experience of listening.

On topic, a good CD player should be able to randomly access tracks (my remote has 1-16), should provide a good amount of sound while scanning, should skip from track to track quickly (when told to do so), the transport should be smooth and quiet, and the entire thing should be built to last (as the measurable quality will deteriorate as components age in a cheap device). I'm willing to pay more for a device that doesn't have any flimsy switches, and--in the absence of measurements--know that this unit isn't the weak component in the signal chain.

Consider automobiles. BMWs are worth more than Buicks, not just because they (may) accelerate, brake, and turn better--which are measurable--but because of different materials, tolerances, and design, are simply more enjoyable to use. While most people think paying $700 for a CD player that sounds the same as a $20 unit, they might better understand paying a $10,000 premium on a car that accelerates at the same rate. Me, I spend more time listening to music than driving, so I'll put my bucks there.

Er. That turned into a rant. Sorry.
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Cheers!
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 2:17 AM Post #58 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If two DAC chips really sound different then there must be a logical reason for it , it seems that looking for differences in the waveforms is a reasonable place to start ?


Logics:

1) Waveforms ---infer---> Sounds
2) Sounds ---infer---> Waveforms

3) DAC chips ---infer---> Waveforms
4) Waveforms ---infer---> DAC chips

5) DAC chips ---infer---> (Waveforms) ---infer---> Sounds
6) Sounds ---infer---> (Waveforms) ---infer---> DAC chips

I came across two interesting articles, studying auditory abilities of sonar crews and about animal communication.

Timbral Segregation of Sonar Transients Using Auditory Processing Techniques
Signal Detection and Animal Communication

If I were to design a test to detect such sonic differences, I would:

1. Identify precise pieces of sounds (both music and non music) that a large number of listeners agree to hear audible differences, as the test sounds.
2. Select *super* listeners who are specilized in auditory discrimination tasks, such as sonar men or audio lab staffs, as the subjects.
3. Train the subjects with the test sounds, until they become very reliable on the discrimiation tasks.
4. Use silient periods as the control sounds, to avoid mental interferences.
5. Let's swap the DAC chips.

However, if the audible differences are so apparent, like listening to an Accuphase v.s. a Rotel, there would be no doubt.
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Apr 20, 2007 at 8:49 AM Post #59 of 107
chesebert;2889529 said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by SubseaTree /img/forum/go_quote.gif

its so rare for a new member to just "GET IT".. you will have a very rewarding journey.
k1000smile.gif



Thanks! maybe I'm new here but judging by the ratio of grey to dark hairs on my head, I'm not exactly fresh out of the box!
wink.gif
 
Apr 20, 2007 at 9:13 AM Post #60 of 107
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I bet there are measurable differences between pepsi and coke (in fact, if you read the wikipedia entry on Coke you'll find that more people prefer Pepsi because it contains more sugar, more lemon oil, less orange oil and use vanillin rather than vanilla). What I'm saying is that those differences are measurable, and the differences are large enough to be perceived. 0.001%versus 0.002%THD or -105db versus -110db noise floor I understand are beyond the resolution of our organs...


It's a good comparison to a certain extent but is limited because drinking pepsi or coke is a single gulp thing with a direct link from the object thru the senses to the brain. Measuring things like DACs in isolation is similar. If you had a test bench for DACs alone with all the other system components remaining constant, ie you were running a properly controlled experiment on DACs only, then I'm sure you could achieve so sort of correlation between objective/measured results and subjective listened to differences.

However, as for most people this is a hobby to extract maximal emotional content from a music signal, this sort of test is of academic interest only. Each CD player outputs a signal that is dependant on the entire cd player as a system. The contributor further down the thread talks about boutique equipment, but at the end of the day the likes of Kondo in the past and Shindo now plus one or two other "perceptive" designers are putting together system not only thru excellent engineering practices but also thru laboriously extensive selection of the capacitors/resistors/cables etc that make the sound fit what their actual perception of reality is. And the really perceptive designer will not just consider reality based on a few measurable performance indicators ... their yard stick will ultimately be communication of the message within the music. That ain't the easiest thing in the world to do. Taking this to it's logical conclusion, it's not the performance of the DAC hat is important, nor the CP player but the whole playback system and that within your listening environment and with you the listener in a suitable mood to recieve the message within the music.

I would argue that most of what we are attempting to achieve with our systems is actually beyond our abilties to test and measure, but not beyond our senses or organs.

But if it floats your boat then by all means take measurements of various DACs, ultimately it will contribute to better systems and that has to be good.
 

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