Diana: the second release by Abyss Headphones!
Jan 15, 2021 at 12:46 PM Post #3,376 of 3,891

Tinola

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As someone who is still on the fence getting the Diana V2, I have a question about Jude’s measurement and I hope it’s not out of line. Is Jude the 3rd party that Abyss is hiring for the headphone measurements? Shouldn’t it be someone who is not being sponsored directly by the headphone company? I’m not taking any sides, but I think the measurements should be of someone who has no monetary ties with the headphone company.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 12:51 PM Post #3,377 of 3,891

A Jedi

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As someone who is still on the fence getting the Diana V2, I have a question about Jude’s measurement and I hope it’s not out of line. Is Jude the 3rd party that Abyss is hiring for the headphone measurements? Shouldn’t it be someone who is not being sponsored directly by the headphone company? I’m not taking any sides, but I think the measurements should be of someone who has no monetary ties with the headphone company.

While I don't distrust Jude's measurements, for the sake of 100% separation from a sponsor (and accusations of favoritism) I'd like to see a pair sent to and measured by Resolve.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 12:52 PM Post #3,378 of 3,891

rthomas

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Well this certainly escalated overnight.





He has a knack for making just about anything seem insidious. My main point in showing the GRAS measurements was to show that a better seating on the same fixture he uses is possible with that headphone. Not including the THD measurements from the better of our two GRAS seatings (Fig.5 in my previous post)) was not a Machiavellian oversight. It was because my main point in bringing the GRAS 45CA in was to discuss the seating upon it. And, as I mentioned, the THD with was rather similar with it anyway (compared to the 5128). Here they are, at 90 dBSPL (1 kHz) compared to the 5128, and 94 dBSPL (425 Hz) also compared to the 5128:

Abyss-Headphones-Diana-V2---THD---90-dBSPL-1-kHz---5128-and-45CA.jpg
Fig.12 (above): ABYSS Headphones DIANA V2 total harmonic distortion (THD) at 90 dBSPL (1 kHz) as measured on the GRAS 45 CA (one seat) and Brüel & Kjær 5128 (two seats).

Abyss-Headphones-Diana-V2---THD---94-dBSPL-425-Hz---5128-and-45CA.jpg
Fig.12 (above): ABYSS Headphones DIANA V2 total harmonic distortion (THD) at 90 dBSPL (1 kHz) as measured on the GRAS 45 CA (one seat) and Brüel & Kjær 5128 (two seats).

Again, the main point in bringing the GRAS 45CA into my previous post was to discuss seating. Looking at his frequency response measurement in Fig.1 of my previous post, I think it's reasonable to question the seating. It seems Amir disagrees. and he even suggested that I must have resorted to using bungies to do it:



We did not use bungies, rubber bands, or any other artificial means to secure the headphone to either of the fixtures in any of these measurements. Again, that's one of my main points: He should consider revisiting his placement, especially considering the frequency response he measured, both in the bass and treble.

Rather than even consider the possibility that he could get better placement in light of what's been shown, he'd rather suggest that we had to artificially tension it. Again, we did not artificially tension the headphone in any way. If we did, I think you'd see a much flatter measurement in the low bass.



While Amir did include a THD level measurement, it was not really the featured THD measurement, nor was it the one at the crux of his key THD criticisms. Once again, while he's now suggesting my use of THD as a ratio (a percentage) is some kind of trickery, he's basing most of his THD-related conclusions (both in his annotations and in his post) on his THD ratio measurements seen in Fig.6 and Fig.7 of my previous post.

Also, while there are valid arguments to be made for using THD level more on balance, Amir and I are not alone in currently using THD expressed as a ratio as our primary THD measurements -- most everyone else does, too.



Again, while choosing to show the Y-axis with a linear (versus logarithmic) scale is his judgment call (and I do not recall criticizing that), I tend to prefer (and so use) a logarithmic Y-axis, as I find it easier to read and interpret. Again, that's a judgment call, and perhaps some prefer the linear Y-axis. From what I can tell, most in our space use log scale when showing THD ratio.

Other than perhaps lowering bass distortion (THD%) by improving his placement, the other key point I made was regarding his use of THD at 114 dBSPL. Again, while I think that's a reasonable thing to look at as an academic exercise, it's a level I will not drive most of the headphones here to -- a level that can cause hearing loss in under two minutes. No doubt some headphones will do better than others driven to those levels. Again, from 90 dB to 104 dB, though, the treble distortion did expectedly increase but it did not shift with the DIANA V2.

Going back to the seating discussion: Amir stated that he verified his measurement with his own ears and equalization. While I respect that he trusts that method as validation of a measurement or seating well done (and suggests that we should trust it, too), I'm not as confident. I still think he should (and will) find ways to improve his seating -- yes, without the need for bungies or other mechanical assistance he'd have you believe we used. After six years, we're still finding ways to improve our methods. I think our method of doing real-time approximations of frequency response as we place the headphones an important step for us.

Last week, I did something similar when someone brought RTINGS' measurement of the AirPods Max to my attention and asked me to post about it. (At the time of my post, I did not know that the measurement I was looking at was by RTINGS.) Again, in that instance it was a discussion of placement, which I posted about with supporting measurements. (I was able to recreate on the 5128 most of what they were getting on their Head Acoustics manikin.) You can see that post by clicking here. I haven't heard from RTINGS yet and don't expect to. If they do contact me, I hope it's more productive (and more civil) than this.

Hi Jude, I know this stuff takes time and effort but could you measure another flagship planar to compare to the Diana? LCD4, He1000SE, Empyrean, anything you have available...
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 1:05 PM Post #3,379 of 3,891
As someone who is still on the fence getting the Diana V2, I have a question about Jude’s measurement and I hope it’s not out of line. Is Jude the 3rd party that Abyss is hiring for the headphone measurements? Shouldn’t it be someone who is not being sponsored directly by the headphone company? I’m not taking any sides, but I think the measurements should be of someone who has no monetary ties with the headphone company.

ABYSS is a sponsor, but they did not pay me to do these measurements. We don't get paid to do any of the measurements by sponsors or non-sponsors.

While I assure you that our measurements here are always done with the utmost integrity and to the best of our ability (though we will occasionally make mistakes), I do understand and respect if the fact that ABYSS is a sponsor invalidates any or all of our measurements with you or anyone else of similar mind.

As with my Apple AirPods Max measurements (vis-à-vis RTINGS' measurements) last week, a published measurement was brought to my attention and I posted about it.

Hi Jude, I know this stuff takes time and effort but could you measure another flagship planar to compare to the Diana? LCD4, He1000SE, Empyrean, anything you have available...

Yes, starting this year we'll be sharing more measurements made on the Brüel & Kjær 5128, and I'm sure we'll share measurements of some or all of the ones you listed (and more). To help start things off, I posted frequency response measurements of the Sennheiser HD800S and Sennheiser HD650 recently (using the 5128) to help get two well known, very widely measured headphones out there. (We'll add THD measurements later, and perhaps other measurements.)
 
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Jan 15, 2021 at 1:07 PM Post #3,380 of 3,891

Tinola

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Appreciate your response and transparency Jude
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 2:47 PM Post #3,381 of 3,891

stuck limo

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ABYSS is a sponsor, but they did not pay me to do these measurements. We don't get paid to do any of the measurements by sponsors or non-sponsors.

Hey Jude, thanks for doing the measurements. They add a really nice additional data point. The exact question to ask here is:

Did Abyss contact Head-Fi and ask you to take measurements of the V2? (we know you weren't paid) It was unclear if you were contacted by private parties in regards to this or by Abyss themselves. :) I'm unclear if we are to expect additional third party measurements (arranged by Abyss) [the DMS measurements?] or if Head-Fi was "the one".

@Abyss Headphones can you please clarify? Thanks! :)
 
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Jan 15, 2021 at 2:57 PM Post #3,382 of 3,891
Hey Jude, thanks for doing the measurements. They add a really nice additional data point. The exact question to ask here is:

Did Abyss contact Head-Fi and ask you to take measurements of the V2? (we know you weren't paid) It was unclear if you were contacted by private parties in regards to this or by Abyss themselves. :) I'm unclear if we are to expect additional third party measurements (arranged by Abyss) [the DMS measurements?] or if Head-Fi was "the one".

@Abyss Headphones can you please clarify? Thanks! :)

ABYSS contacted me to ask if we had done measurements of it, and a couple of members also linked me to what was going on (they can chime in here if they want). I had not done DIANA V2 measurements up to that point, but decided to then.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 4:16 PM Post #3,383 of 3,891

stuck limo

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ABYSS contacted me to ask if we had done measurements of it, and a couple of members also linked me to what was going on (they can chime in here if they want). I had not done DIANA V2 measurements up to that point, but decided to then.

OK, so it seems like you weren't really "asked" to do it by Abyss, it was more of an independent decision on your part. That's my understanding of your post.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 4:49 PM Post #3,384 of 3,891
OK, so it seems like you weren't really "asked" to do it by Abyss, it was more of an independent decision on your part. That's my understanding of your post.

While I'd see no problem with them asking me to measure it (even in this context) they did not in this case. Companies from all over ask us to measure prototypes and products regularly, so it's something we're used to here. The activity has stepped a bit lately, as there's a growing interest in seeing 5128 measurements from some who are thinking of picking one up.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 5:00 PM Post #3,385 of 3,891

Tachyon88

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@jude From your initial post with measurments "A few members and Abyss Headphones pinged me to let me know about this discussion, asking me if we had measured the ABYSS DIANA V2.". In this sentence you never specifically said they asked you, yet abyss publicly said they would contact a "third party" that will make measurements and now here we are. Since they sponser this site are we still waiting on third party measurements ?

At this point Abyss should just release their measurements as well.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 5:11 PM Post #3,386 of 3,891

bluestorm1992

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It seems to me that people will be unsatisfied with the measurement regardless.

Abyss’s own measurement - biased towards saying good things about their own product.

A third party but with some relationship with Abyss: biased as well due to the relationship.

So an ideal result would come from a place that clearly has no link with either Abyss or ASR. However, then the question is why they would bother to join this conversation to measure it for us? I know that there are various third parties doing that, but I understand that most of them have a long backlog of items to be reviewed, and measuring the Diana may not be their priority. If Abyss pays them to do a measurement, then well...
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 5:50 PM Post #3,388 of 3,891

normie610

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I have zero knowledge in analyzing/interpreting FR graphs, but I do have a question that may sound stupid:

If I listen to a headphone with two different amps, and those two amps give different sound signatures to the headphone (let’s say one gives more presence to the bass and the other one focuses more on the midrange), would that result in two different FR graphs after it was measured?
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Post #3,389 of 3,891

TDinCali

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Not sure why some people are so interested in whether Abyss asked for this test or inquired or should they do another test. It seems like everyone has lost. Abyss’s reputation has been soiled, Amir’s (assuming I have the name right) reputation is now questioned and some people still want further data and are acting like a investigation needs to take place by analyzing every word someone typed. The rest of us are either enjoying our headphones or agree that this hobby is about enjoying the music and there are numerous subjective elements that can’t be put on a distortion graph. Yet some feel that certain price points require a certain level of specs. Ultimately the market decides. People will either pay for a headphone or other component or they won’t. As some like to call it “snakeoil”, as a business model never lasts. So let’s let Abyss do what they do and let the market decide whether their headphones are worth it or not and let’s put this measurement fiasco to bed. While that other forum has a jihad. Just my 2 cents. Cheers.
 
Jan 15, 2021 at 6:31 PM Post #3,390 of 3,891

Blinxat

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I believe it was marketed as a boutique headphone at some time. So I wouldn't expect a tech number cruncher fetishist anyway.

Unless the distortion is audible at normal listening levels maybe it is not a big issue?

I wonder if the diana phi measures any better.
 

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