[491838]

I have zero knowledge in analyzing/interpreting FR graphs, but I do have a question that may sound stupid:

If I listen to a headphone with two different amps, and those two amps give different sound signatures to the headphone (let’s say one gives more presence to the bass and the other one focuses more on the midrange), would that result in two different FR graphs after it was measured?

No. It is simply a myth that different solid state amps change the signature of a headphone as long as they all measure flat and have low impedance. So no, different amps don't influence the FR of a headphone if they are uncolored like most solid state amps are. At best I could see different filters being implemented for the high frequencies that would roll off the highs earlier than normal but even that wouldn't significantly impact the FR.

I think the issue with this whole controversy is that people don't necessarily listen to headphones the same way. Some people are WAY more picky about FR than others (myself included). Any odd peak or dip can ruin a headphone for someone is a perfectionist and wants the most amount of clarity and no harshness. I would say that was the primary reason why I sold most of the headphones that I've owned over the years.

While I'd see no problem with them asking me to measure it (even in this context) they did not in this case. Companies from all over ask us to measure prototypes and products regularly, so it's something we're used to here. The activity has stepped a bit lately, as there's a growing interest in seeing 5128 measurements from some who are thinking of picking one up.

I think the THD measurements in particular look a bit too flattering but I don't think that this was intentional in the sense that your other measurements also present that way. I seem to recall a THD measurement of the HD6XX which showed a lot less THD in the bass than other third party measurements. I'm guessing some kind of weighting is used because in my experience I could kinda hear some distortion in the sub bass on that line of headphones.

 

[FastAndClean]

Fig.4 (above): ABYSS Headphones DIANA V2 frequency response as measured on the GRAS 45CA (RA0401), seat 1.

that is a typical planar bass response with a leak, the hump around 55hz, no wonder the distortions are high in the sub bass, the driver is underdamped because of the lack of sealed front volume, with AB1266 small leak is recommended to achieve that hump in the sub bass, is that the case with Diana? or good seal is the way to go

 

[491838]

that is a typical planar bass response with a leak, the hump around 55hz, no wonder the distortions are high in the sub bass, the driver is underdamped because of the lack of sealed front volume, with AB1266 small leak is recommended to achieve that hump in the sub bass, is that the case with Diana? or good seal is the way to go

Both measurements show a bass roll-off and that's indicative of a bad design if they don't seal properly on people's heads. The rest of the response could be different due to unit variation. Maybe the pair ASR measured is a dud but Jude's unit doesn't look that much better honestly.

 

[A Jedi]

No. It is simply a myth that different solid state amps change the signature of a headphone as long as they all measure flat and have low impedance.

Ok. Let's play a game. What if one of those amps has 50db channel separation at 3KHz (this is an arbitrary frequency) and another has 85db separation at that same frequency? What does this do to what you hear?

 

[Junglebook3]

FWIW I've listened or currently own the Diana v2, Verite & Verite Closed, Stellia, Clear, Radiance, Elegia, Elex, Aeon 2 Closed, Empyrean, Z1R, Eikon, Atticus, HD 800s, Arya, LCD GX, and many more lower end models on 6 different DAC/Amps and the Diana sounds the best to me. It doesn't need EQ, and it's presentation is unique and most speaker-like. It's instrument separation is also the best. Not a huge fan of it's comfort, but with DMS pads and the glue on headband cushion Abyss recommend it's reasonable.

 

[KPzypher]

If you like what you hear, who cares what anyone else says? Just move on and enjoy your V2.

Why are so many people so upset/butthurt/defensive on headfi and on various other forums with regard to Amir's findings?

The disconcerted individuals appear to be in the same crowd that touts 'music is not 1's and 0's, or 'I listen with my ears, not measurements,' yet they reject the premise of Amir's objections/findings because his approach isn't scientific enough or consequentially flawed??

And for the life of me, someone please explain to me how DMS's measurements add more credibility? Or Jude's for that matter?

Whether you take things at face value or not is up to you, but stop arbitrarily picking sides that better suit your needs.... SMH.

Why don't these people scrutinize claims regarding burn-in or aftermarket cable with equal ferocity?
You find remarkable flaws in Amir's methodology, yet you're ok with people saying "These $1K cable adds bass slam and treble extension, improve soundstage, imaging etc...... I can't explain why but I just hear the difference......"

There are plenty of opinions on this forum, which is fine, but if you're going to drop your 02 cents, at least be consistent in your criticism, and apply the same standards throughout.

And to Abyss, if your default stance is to revert to childish personal attacks in response to an individual's findings, you might want to seriously reconsider your PR strategy. Backup your claims with data, or don't bother at all. I'm saying this as a potential customer.

Comfort issues aside, I believe Diana is a finely built HP. I'm just liking planars in general less and less these days.

 

[paradoxper]

I love how the headphone sounds, pretty everyone loves how the headphones sound..reviewers love them etc...oops there was a questionable measurement....they no longer sound great

Who cares. Poor methodology and there-in results don't invalidate the listening experience to begin.

Don't succumb to the sycophants.

 

[Abyss Headphones]

 

[frogmeat69]

Simple. Just find a way to try them on yourself.

Edit: It's more fun this way

And a hell of a lot more expensive if you have nowhere to try them except by mail order.

 

[seamon]

If you like what you hear, who cares what anyone else says? Just move on and enjoy your V2.

Why are so many people so upset/butthurt/defensive on headfi and on various other forums with regard to Amir's findings?

 

[Tachyon88]

Driving/Car enthusiast: "How does it work, how does it feel, how does it drive, what are the specs....etc ?"

Normies: "Who cares about all that, you act like the specs,engineering and feel are going to get you to your destination."

Manufactor to car enthusiast: "Stop being something you're not.....amateur."

 

[XUPX]

If you like what you hear, who cares what anyone else says? Just move on and enjoy your V2.

Why are so many people so upset/butthurt/defensive on headfi and on various other forums with regard to Amir's findings?

The disconcerted individuals appear to be in the same crowd that touts 'music is not 1's and 0's, or 'I listen with my ears, not measurements,' yet they reject the premise of Amir's objections/findings because his approach isn't scientific enough or consequentially flawed??

And for the life of me, someone please explain to me how DMS's measurements add more credibility? Or Jude's for that matter?

Whether you take things at face value or not is up to you, but stop arbitrarily picking sides that better suit your needs.... SMH.

Why don't these people scrutinize claims regarding burn-in or aftermarket cable with equal ferocity?
You find remarkable flaws in Amir's methodology, yet you're ok with people saying "These $1K cable adds bass slam and treble extension, improve soundstage, imaging etc...... I can't explain why but I just hear the difference......"

There are plenty of opinions on this forum, which is fine, but if you're going to drop your 02 cents, at least be consistent in your criticism, and apply the same standards throughout.

And to Abyss, if your default stance is to revert to childish personal attacks in response to an individual's findings, you might want to seriously reconsider your PR strategy. Backup your claims with data, or don't bother at all. I'm saying this as a potential customer.

Comfort issues aside, I believe Diana is a finely built HP. I'm just liking planars in general less and less these days.

Basically this.
I've owned the V2 and own the Phi and I read the review and I'm happy with it. It's more data. I still like my headphones.

And I totally agree about people applying different standards. I gave an example earlier asking where are all of the crusades against network cables and switches. Even if I were to believe in regular cables and such (I don't), at least those are on the analog signal, so can hypothetically have an effect. But network gear is literally passing 0s and 1s and has error correction built into the standards. If a packet can't be corrected it'll get resent. So, value in is value out. Otherwise, with everyone using "lower grade" networking gear, we would all see very different content on the internet. But I guess small companies deserve a higher level of protection than the consumer

 

[bithloman]

If you like what you hear, who cares what anyone else says? Just move on and enjoy your V2.

Why are so many people so upset/butthurt/defensive on headfi and on various other forums with regard to Amir's findings?

The disconcerted individuals appear to be in the same crowd that touts 'music is not 1's and 0's, or 'I listen with my ears, not measurements,' yet they reject the premise of Amir's objections/findings because his approach isn't scientific enough or consequentially flawed??

And for the life of me, someone please explain to me how DMS's measurements add more credibility? Or Jude's for that matter?

Whether you take things at face value or not is up to you, but stop arbitrarily picking sides that better suit your needs.... SMH.

Why don't these people scrutinize claims regarding burn-in or aftermarket cable with equal ferocity?
You find remarkable flaws in Amir's methodology, yet you're ok with people saying "These $1K cable adds bass slam and treble extension, improve soundstage, imaging etc...... I can't explain why but I just hear the difference......"

There are plenty of opinions on this forum, which is fine, but if you're going to drop your 02 cents, at least be consistent in your criticism, and apply the same standards throughout.

And to Abyss, if your default stance is to revert to childish personal attacks in response to an individual's findings, you might want to seriously reconsider your PR strategy. Backup your claims with data, or don't bother at all. I'm saying this as a potential customer.

Comfort issues aside, I believe Diana is a finely built HP. I'm just liking planars in general less and less these days.

i dont think its fair to say questioning amirs measurements and theories is the same as saying a cable brings more bass slam which ive heard very few people say. there is valid criticisms and it seems like that bothers you.

 

[Merkurio]

i dont think its fair to say questioning amirs measurements and theories is the same as saying a cable brings more bass slam which ive heard very few people say. there is valid criticisms and it seems like that bothers you.

Assuming someone can fully understand the measurements of headphones and their methodology to the point that can question or criticize them (in a valid way, not in a childish angry one) implies some extent of technical knowledge/background or enough interest in audio science at the very least, which completely denegates non-scientific asumptions of cables making huge differences (you don’t even need to be an audio nerd for that, just have the electrical conductivity basics covered).

I haven’t seen a single “valid” criticism against Amir measurements and methodology with actual arguments supporting it (other than blatantly “Amir bad, Jude good”), nor any technical response explaining why Jude measurements are better (when they show almost the same findings as Amir’s, but in a different less-conventional way).

My thoughts from an audio engineer perspective familiarized with both headphone and speaker measurements about the Abyss drama:

-Despite the difference in fixtures (and the superiority of Jude’s Brüel & Kjær 5128), the results show the same issues in form of weak sub-bass response that can be easily heard depending of the seal.
-Suboptimal distortion in both set of measurements, which leads to a limited EQ capabilities (potentially needed for the stock frequency response, depending the listener preferences).
-Regarding to EQ, measurements would be performed at high SPL levels in order to allow headroom for establish a negative pre-gain value and avoid clipping with the raising values during the EQ process. Besides, 114 dB it’s not that high considering that we’re talking about music with variable frequencies and 114 dB at bass frequencies aren’t the same as 114 dB at mid to high frequencies for our hear safety. I’m really surprised Jude doesn’t know that when criticizes Amir’s 114 dB measurements.
-Jude’s graphs looks more “pleasing” for a pure visual perspective, but are less accurate showing the actual headphone behavior (partially because the use of less conventional logarithmic scale in favor of the industry linear standard, as Amir stated, but also for the wider resolution and aspect ratio).
-A disclaimer should have been done in name of transparency from a pure ethics standpoint, considering the manufacturer is actually your sponsor.

 

[491838]

Ok. Let's play a game. What if one of those amps has 50db channel separation at 3KHz (this is an arbitrary frequency) and another has 85db separation at that same frequency? What does this do to what you hear?

There are DACs that have crossfeed if you want that. It would definitely change the sound but that can be measured too.