[plakat]

Hi Plakat

I think that without realizing, you touched on a good point when you talk about "expensive".
In fact, I see now that it is a point of analysis that I was taking for granted.

In this way: It made perfect sense to me to spend 250€ on a cable for the 9200's, seeing that the extended stage and sound quality improvement were substantial to my ears, but also because percentage wise it seemed like a reasonable investment! A more "expensive" (costlier) cable would have seemed too much to me, again for the price I paid for the 9200's.

I recently got the Meze Elite, and spent on a 400€ cable. Again, percentage wise it made sense, taking into consideration the improvements, which are in fact confirmed by Meze themselves.

Just to say that "expensive" is relative to where and how we apply it.
And so, NOT spending on a "reasonable" (to me) investment to improve the whole of the gear and experience, would be in fact an expensive miss.

This is talking in a forum where we spend large amounts of money in our beloved hobby, which is "crazy, nuts expensive" to my friends who do not share this passion!
Thankfully I have convinced (somewhat) my wife on this front.

Luis

While I see cable costs a bit more absolute (250,- being within my realm, 400,- maybe not), it’s good to know we’re not talking crazy CRAZY expensive
I’ve seen power cables for 6k€… which are then connected to a wall outlet fed by thin copper laid directly into the wall around the 1950s…

And yes, you’re right to add the perspective that we’re already talking about thing others outside this bubble deem quite crazy anyway…

Offtopic:
It’s always a special experience when a crazy person calls you crazy (well, at least they know what they’re talking about…). As I mentioned I did professional sound systems for many years. I also owned some basic visual equipment like a fog generator. Once during buildup for a larger event an operator from a quite large lightning company approached me after seeing that thing standing there, asking wether they could use it. Yes, of course: that’s why I brought it there. He was happy and told me, their company only owned the smaller version…

 

[StarTreker]

Sorry to disagree, but the cables included are just fine with me. Except I’d prefer 2m length for the shorter one instead of 1.4m
Balanced won’t help you with a low impedance high efficiency headphone like the D9200 except when your amps single ended output has implementation problems.
I’d save that money and use it for purchasing music instead.

100% agreed, this dude know whats up!

 

[StarTreker]

But then again, this site is full of a bunch of wonderful enablers, and I can't help to be tempted, even though I also know that @plakat is right. lol!

Before I ask this question, please note that my system is connected up using RCA connections, 22-gauge big cables, not thin wire garbage. Since I am not using XLR, it seems pointless to recommend an XLR cable, so I rather none of you didn't lol. With that said, despite the original D9200 cable using a silver core cable, what 1/4 to dual 3.8 single ended cable do you folks recommend, that is supposedly far better then the original?

No wonder I am always broke LMAO!

 

[plakat]

But then again, this site is full of a bunch of wonderful enablers, and I can't help to be tempted, even though I also know that @plakat is right. lol!

Before I ask this question, please note that my system is connected up using RCA connections, 22-gauge big cables, not thin wire garbage. Since I am not using XLR, it seems pointless to recommend an XLR cable, so I rather none of you didn't lol. With that said, despite the original D9200 cable using a silver core cable, what 1/4 to dual 3.8 single ended cable do you folks recommend, that is supposedly far better then the original?

No wonder I am always broke LMAO!

Oh, a nice cable does have its merits (though I think if it changes the sound, one of the cables used was simply defective…)
So explore that corner of this hobby. I’d just not spent a fortune, and especially don’t expect any wonders in sound optimization.

A good cable is better to handle, nicer to look at, can be tailored to your requirements (length, termination etc), should be more resistant against abuse etc. there’s a lot of snakeoil in circulation, but keeping away from spending too much money should keep you rather safe I think.

 

[zolkis]

With that said, despite the original D9200 cable using a silver core cable, what 1/4 to dual 3.8 single ended cable do you folks recommend, that is supposedly far better then the original?

These ones for certain, they sound better than e.g. any Denon cables, the Silver Widow from Toxic and many others. Also the cheapest possible.
https://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/dcc_wire.html
You need the 0.45 or 0.56 mm wires, in total four strands. You need a splitter, shrink wraps, connectors, shields/covers of your own choosing, e.g. from audiophonics.fr or Ali.
I suggest 1.25-2 m length. A bit stiffer than the usual in the end, but well manageable. Depending on the pyjamas used, they could be microphonic as well, but they last long and the sound will surprise you. Good project, if not for daily usage.
Don't fall for other fancy copper UP-OCC wires (silver or copper), I tried so many of those, to sound worse than the original cables.
The cotton insulation is at play here, and you can use resin impregnation to make them sound even better.
My 2 cents, YMMV.

As for ready made cables, honest and good ones are e.g. from Forza Audio (no ties).
I just mentioned the DIY option because they sound so good for so little money.

 

[StarTreker]

These ones for certain, they sound better than e.g. any Denon cables, the Silver Widow from Toxic and many others. Also the cheapest possible.
https://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/dcc_wire.html
You need the 0.45 or 0.56 mm wires, in total four strands. You need a splitter, shrink wraps, connectors, shields/covers of your own choosing, e.g. from audiophonics.fr or Ali.
I suggest 1.25-2 m length. A bit stiffer than the usual in the end, but well manageable. Depending on the pyjamas used, they could be microphonic as well, but they last long and the sound will surprise you. Good project, if not for daily usage.
Don't fall for other fancy copper UP-OCC wires (silver or copper), I tried so many of those, to sound worse than the original cables.
The cotton insulation is at play here, and you can use resin impregnation to make them sound even better.
My 2 cents, YMMV.

As for ready made cables, honest and good ones are e.g. from Forza Audio (no ties).
I just mentioned the DIY option because they sound so good for so little money.

Thanks for the links, I am most certainly not going to DIY, so I am aiming for ready made cables. In your 2nd link, it showed lots of options available, and I really don't know which one of those are the best, so I just picked the first one. And then while doing the individual selections for the cable, I got super confused. I don't know what is what, or referenced to what, its obviously geared towards those who are knowledgeable into making cables.

So I took a screenshot, to show what I chose based on my understanding.

I most certainly want a 3M cable, I need to have some flexible room so I don't yank the cable from being too short. Choosing who the cable is for, that was obvious however, so I selected the Denon dropdown. I am confused about the plug, did I choose correctly, does that 6.3mm refer to the 1/4 plug that goes into the AMP? And I don't know what to choose for splitter so I left that alone. Will the cable as configured, mean that it already has the two split cables to go into each cup of the headphones, or do I need to choose the 2x option under splitter to get that?

And lastly, is this the best cable choice out of that link you shared, or is there a better one to use? I can tell you right now, I don't like the look of the connector, but maybe thats not such a big deal, if this is the best ready made cable that I can use?

 

[zolkis]

For the D9200, I'd suggest the pure copper variants, e.g. the Noir HPC Mk2 (or Claire HPC Mk2) with your selections. You are on your own with these, I don't guarantee you will like them more than the original cables, so do your own searches, including the relevant threads here.

 

[yrstruly]

Worst thing about these is how much they stick out on your head. When my hair is short they look so goofy. Maddening cos the bamboo cups and design are otherwise stunning

 

[StarTreker]

For the D9200, I'd suggest the pure copper variants, e.g. the Noir HPC Mk2 (or Claire HPC Mk2) with your selections. You are on your own with these, I don't guarantee you will like them more than the original cables, so do your own searches, including the relevant threads here.

Well, I did manage to learn something. The original 3m Denon D9200 cable is not using a pure sliver core wire like I thought, turns out its silver plated copper, and OFC to be specific.

While on that website you linked me too, I learned that pure OCC copper is much preferred for tonality. And the oxygen free nature of the cable, also prevents the greeny oxidation thing that copper naturally does when exposed to oxygen.

Plus, I am happy to know that they use high quality connectors over there, on their custom cable construction. I was initially under the impression that Denon used the highest quality cable possible, as they claim they did high levels of testing at their facility on it, I suppose that was just marketing hype.

When it comes to marketing though, I tend to listen to folks like you instead, who have no money in the game, and actually want to guide my direction down the right path, and not the BS path lol. So I have learned a little, still more to know.

Anyways, I contacted the company for clarification on a couple things, and if everything is correct, I'm going to go ahead and spend a lot of money on a cable, because I think my Denon's deserve it, instead of Denon Corporate marketing puke. lol

 

[zolkis]

Well, I did manage to learn something. The original 3m Denon D9200 cable is not using a pure sliver core wire like I thought, turns out its silver plated copper, and OFC to be specific.

Yes, I think that's mentioned in the D9200 specs, also talked about a lot in his thread.

While on that website you linked me too, I learned that pure OCC copper is much preferred for tonality. And the oxygen free nature of the cable, also prevents the greeny oxidation thing that copper naturally does when exposed to oxygen.

In my experience, just the right cable material and crystal structure (manufacturing tech) are necessary, but not sufficient.

1. Structure [and strand geometry]
Optimally you want a Litz structure, right, but the main issue is with the strand thickness: all cables use too thin strands, about 0.07-0.15 mm (for usability reasons, as you cannot sell stiffer headphone cables). Also Forza Audio, as according to them, "custom formulated PE insulation, 56 individual strands in 7 groups in Litz geometry", which tells me the strands are also too thin here. The min. copper single-strand thickness I'd recommend is about 0.3 mm, and for practical reasons you need to stop around 0.6 mm (and that at single strand per polarity). I tried 2-strand 0.3 mm (8 strands cable), 1-strand 0.45 mm (4 strands cable) cotton covered vs thicker AWG but thinner strands cables, and the difference in sound is not small. Some big names like Cardas and AudioQuest also believe in strand geometry, but in essence they use thick strands. Something to ponder.

2. Dielectric / insulator
Here we go in material science, as not only the macro parameters matter, but also the structure of the contact surface between the different materials, whatever affects the uniformity of the electromagnetic field. To not go into patented areas, I'd only say when looking for best sounding cables, foam-like insulation tend to be better than Teflon and PE, and impregnated cotton insulations tend to sound best, when using the right materials.

As to silver, there may be commercial cables that sound better than others' best copper cables.
Good silver cables will cost more than the D9200, and it's totally not worth it for me.
But the Forza Audio material shows they do pay attention to the main things and make honest cables for honest prices.
The thing I don't know is how much you will prefer the outcome over the original cables.

The most cost effective good sounding cable I'd recommend with the D9200 would be the copper D7200 cables.

Edit: it seems there is some good experience also with this cheap cable.

 

[Luisonic]

Hi Guys,

Since this whole cable discussion started with my recommending Kiwi to get a custom cable because I considered the Denon cable subpar, and then got a whole lot of comments in the virtues of the original cable, I decided to make a small test, out of intellectual honesty, just to verify my original (and years old) impressions, based on the sound performance and my subjective experience.

Original Denon cable 3.5 unbalanced vs Forza Noir 2.5 balanced ending. The DAP used is in the pics, the AK SP3000 SS.

For this little test I used three pieces:

- JINGOL from Strome, Martin Kohlstedt
- Naked by Cleyra, from Patina Echoes
- Stella by Starlight from Kind of Blue by Miles Davis

I have to start with one statement, to summarize:
NOT.EVEN.CLOSE.

Without boring you too much, the main noticeable difference I heard coming in two main aspects:

- The Denon cable's presentation seems ok, good instrumental separation, as per the SP3k's delivery. I had to raise the volume to 75.
In general, the instruments sounded a bit tinny and sometimes thin, as in the piano in Jingol: While the voices and lower register seemed ok, the general presentation was wide in soundstage, again as per SP3k, but flat. So, tinny, thin instruments, wide, flat soundstage.

-When switching to the Noir, I had to lower the volume to 65 to obtain the same level, and still the difference was very noticeable. Instruments gained in body and substance, and the wonderful delivery of the SP3k was definitely there. Sounds became more tactile and realistic, while less isolated. In Naked, it was an especially dramatic difference, as the stage was filled with the echoes and decays of the sounds coming from all directions, filling the stage, more tridimensionally now. No more tinny, separated sounds but a more whole and coherent presentation.

I thought the closest would be Stella by Starlight, and yet the same impressions were confirmed. Thinner sounding instruments with the Denon, while with the Noir the bass came to life, instruments gained in that tactile feeling, and the impression of almost being able to see the instrument as it gets played. The second attack on the theme by Miles moved me, as it does most times, while with the Denon it just came and went.
Also noticed on this piece that, if this were a jazz club, you went from being in the back to being front row, right next to the musicians and the experience.

SO, to close:
Sorry, friends who are using the Denon cable. You are missing out, not receiving a lot of information which, to my ears, is the difference between a generally acceptable listening experience, and the realism and emotion of a closer presence with the Noir. And it is not a small difference, as we often speak of the "last 5%". I would dare say that here we are easily in double digit percentage difference.

I owed this test to myself, to see if I was just repeating same old heard phrases, to see if my memory may have been fooled by time and confirmation biases.
Not so by a long shot. I stand by my recommendation fully.

I conclude by saying that this little half-hour test confirmed that this less than 300€ cable was, for me, a good investment to be able enjoy these 9200s to their fullest.

Lui

 

[plakat]

Volume differences suggest many things… and that’s a real problem. Cables with higher impedance also potentially change the sound of low impedance headphones, especially those with very non-linear impedance curves (e.g. multi-BA in-ears).
Much of that insulation influences are only relevant at frequencies mich higher than audio (I.e MHz oder even GHz). Don’t let the Techno babble of those companies impress you…
A solid cable with good finish and good handling properties does cost something (and some connectors are a real PITA to solder, as is some cable sheeting hard to get visually appealing), but there’s a lot of snakeoil out there in cable land…
And as I said before, just don’t expect sonic wonders

 

[StarTreker]

I love this topic about cables that we are having, because at the end of the day, when one buys a 1600 dollar headphone, it does matter to have a nice cable, not just to compliment it in how the cable makes the headphones sound, but also in the way that the cable looks, and feels in the hand. FYI, before this conversation, I didn't know what microphonics was, so I looked it up. Oh heck yeah I am dealing with microphonics with the Denon cable, I just didn't know what to call it. If the cable brushes up against my shirt collar, I hear it in the cans. If I caress the dual cables like I have a strange cable fetish, I hear a wood sawing sound in the can's.

So now, I can officially say, I have several reasons to want a better cable. I want to have a more dynamic bigger body, less tinny sound quality, and since I am a basshead, I do tend to prefer a warmer sound, so it sound like I am on the right track with going pure copper here. I also would like a better cable to kill the annoying microphonics. Although having said that, I can tell you right now, nothing I've tried sounded as bad as my Ultrasone Sig X's, with their heavily creeking plastic body, that was like nails down a chalk board!

Also, having a cable that looks far better, and feels far better in my hand, is also something I would appreciate. So, I have pretty much made up my mind on this one, I really want the better cable. But oddly enough, I am still waiting on a response from the company. I just want an answer to make sure I have selected the right drop down settings on the page. Since the company has a NO return policy for custom cables, except if the cables are defective, I want to make sure I chose the right options. But again, still have no email response yet.

@zolkis does this look right?

I use the single ended 1/4 jack on my S.M.S.L AMP, and I believe the ViaBlue 6.3mm refers to that main mail plug connection. I'm just not certain, but I believe it means that. I also believe that because I selected Denon under headphones, I assume that means they use the proper dual 3.5mm plugs to go into my Denon headphones. I also decided to go with ViaBlue since it was a choice, because I think the connector looks better. I decided 2.5m would be enough length actually for the cable for me. As far as splitter, I don't know what is right to set for that, so I left it default on Forza AudioWorks CNC.

If this looks right to you, I am going to order this. Because I am in the US, I assume this will take a good 2 to 3 weeks to get here, like the last cable I bought from Europe did lol.

 

[thelittletaffia]

I'm using an Oidio cable that I originally bought for my Focal Clears. That was my second Oidio cable the first being purchased to replace a terminally damaged stock cable for my Oppo PM1s. The Oppo's cable was by far the best stock cable I've ever used. I honestly cannot say that, apart from a reduction in microphonics, I notice any discernible improvement in audio quality from any of the stock cables. Had the Oppo not had 2.5mm jacks then the first Oidio cable would have serviced my three current 'phones.

 

[zolkis]

-When switching to the Noir, I had to lower the volume to 65 to obtain the same level, and still the difference was very noticeable. Instruments gained in body and substance, and the wonderful delivery of the SP3k was definitely there. Sounds became more tactile and realistic, while less isolated. In Naked, it was an especially dramatic difference, as the stage was filled with the echoes and decays of the sounds coming from all directions, filling the stage, more tridimensionally now. No more tinny, separated sounds but a more whole and coherent presentation.

Thank you. That is exactly the difference I heard with my DIY cables. Good to know there are commercial cables with similar qualities. No brainer for that price...

@zolkis does this look right?

Looks good, I'd make the same choices. I am also at more ease after the recommendation above. Good luck!