[zolkis]

Sorry i dont fully understand all the technical stuff , when you say modded D7200 you mean a D7200 with new and better ear pads?, do you mean these Stax 009 pads from this link? https://staxaudio.com/earpad/stax-sr-009-earpad they are expensive, you say that replacement D7200 pads also works good? where can i buy these?. You rank TX00 higher then not modded D7200 and D5000 (better then D5200 also?), so i guess they are pretty good headphones, i can get them for a good price. I listen to all kind of Music but not classical, so i need a good headphone that is all-around good with many genres.

Maybe you can tell me this also, will this pretty old M-Stage headphone amplifier in this link https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/1670977_thumb.jpg work well with the TX00 or do i need Another and better amp for the TX00 headphones?.

I would choose the TH-X00 over the D5000 and D2000, but that's me. You need to figure out your own taste, and you need to listen to these yourself...
I haven't directly compared the TH-X00 versions against a D5200, so I don't know; for sure the TH-X00 will sound bigger, with more bass kick, sharper treble and more V-shaped sound. I cannot judge if you'd prefer that or not over the more linear but also flatter sounding D5200.

If you like the D5000, a natural upgrade would be the D7000 or the TH900. IMHO the TH900 sounds much better than the TH-X00, but many people would disagree with me on this forum, so that that with salt and pepper.

 

[Xlaw]

It seems to me that loss of brightness is somewhat confused with loss of resolution - there is a certain correlation (like details drowning into the noise floor with DACs), but it's also subjective, bound to personal perception.

I tested the D7200 against the best e-stats and IMHO they are not masking anything, it's just lower level and differently placed in the sound stage and perhaps sounding slightly differently with some equipment. Depending on ancillary equipment that lower level may mean loss of resolution as well, since now some of the details got drowned into the limits of the system as a whole. When that happens, there will be a change in how we hear a certain aspect of the music in space, time and harmonic content (like a background noise, a reverb, a decay, the body and colors of the instrument sound etc). When the change is big enough, we may perceive it as losing that aspect, even though it's still there, one can hear it, but it's not quite the same. I am not sure I could explain well what I mean. When you put ice into water, it disappears, even though you may make its form out under water when it's moving.

IMHO it is the pads that make the D7200 sound more dull or more constrained (even constricted) than it could. It's not bad pads at all, it's just too thick, too hard and has too much damping mass in that small acoustic space.
Those bloody pads matter as much as crossovers, internal damping and room interactions matter (all together) with speakers.

The D7200 drivers are as resolving to my ears as any other Fostex or better headphone. Not as resolving as e-stats, but not far either.
The D9200 drivers are brighter but also resolve better, still with nice harmonic structure.
The D7200 drivers are far more neutral and linear than the D7000, D9200, Fostex TH900, TH600 and many other drivers. It's state of the art that it's not as bright as the TH900 and D9200 drivers. Therefore IMHO has the best possibility to sound with realistic tonality without artificial enhancements.

Many aftermarket pads can make the D7200 sound more direct, but IMHO most of them will sound even worse than the stock pads. I tried more than a dozen pads with the D7200, not counting mods.

So far I found 3 ways out of this:
1. Sell the D7200 and get the D9200. A bit on the brighter side now, but reference level, especially in closed headphones. Don't touch it, pair with warm equipment, enjoy.
2. Get replacement pads for the D7200 and modify them (remove about 30% of the internal foam thickness). More open, better kick, better treble, bigger sound stage. Your ears have to be compatible with this change (thinner pads).
3. Get Stax SR-009 pads and modify them by removing the white ring from the internal foam (reversible and much easier to do than #2, but much more expensive). More resolution, much bigger sound stage, very natural. More open and bigger sounding than #2. Comparable to #1 but with no treble issues. Today this is my preference but I keep #2. around.

[4. It is possible that changing the cups would help as well, but there is no aftermarket for this. Unless one can obtain D9200 replacement cups and mount them on the D7200 (they seem to be the same size and design, same CNC process). Why would someone do that? Because it's IMHO easier to correct the D7200 lack of treble level than the D9200's enhanced treble.]

In all cases the apparent resolving power is increased together with openness and treble level. Interestingly also the bass extension, transparency, definition and sound stage improve. All by changing pads. (Of course you can change cables as well .

To fix honkiness in some D7200 samples, you need to use extra padding in the cups (e.g. a thin layer of Creatology foam pad that covers the internal back of the cups).
Interestingly enough, this problem disappeared for me in about 2 years time (verified by measurements). Similar effect happened with my Fostex headphones. The wood seems to get better with time.
So I have removed all cups damping from all these, that made the sound much more defined.

If one is not into mods, again I recommend getting the stock D9200.

Of course the D9200 will benefit from mods as well , but IMHO it's not worth the hassle, since its treble will become a hard-to-fix issue, unlike with the D7200, which is near-perfect after the mods. Cymbals, timpani, saxophone, wind instruments have so nice definition, natural clarity and body resonance, without any glare or treble haze. All other closed headphones seem to be colored or thin or thick in comparison. It's a joy to listen to them. The modded TH900 are even better in some respects, but much more colored, suiting more to jazz and electronica than to classical and chamber music - side by side I prefer the natural neutrality of the D7200, since it's closer to the e-stat tonality.

Hello, I have an X2HR and an HD58X. The x2 is very good except for the deal breaker (IMO) grainy treble, my ears somewhat adjusted to it but when I switch to the HD58X I immediately notice how much smoother it is than the x2. My problem with the HD58X is the closed in soundstage and the bass doesn't impact enough.

I'm looking to upgrade to the D7200, D5200 or the Atticus depending on which is a better all-rounder for games, movies and music ( should do well enough for all kinds of music ). The Key words here are FUN, SMOOTH with no harshness or sibilant across the whole spectrum, BIG soundstage ( at least good enough for gaming and for a closed HP ) and QUALITY BASS. I don't have an amp and I don't see my self investing in an expensive one, but up to 150$ is okay ( looking at the Liquid spark and JDS Labs Atoms) . The problem is that I can't demo or hear any of them because I live in the middle east and we don't have any local dealers that have these headphones, so I'll have to deal with what I get ( can't return it if I order online ).

Any suggestions ?

And sorry for tagging you like this I just can't bare the grainy treble on the X2's anymore. please HELP, lol.

 

[zolkis]

I have quickly compared my modded D7200 + modded Stax 009 pads (abbreviated henceforth as m009p) to the D9200 and HD820.
My overall preference (including other headphones):
D7200+m009p > D9200+m009p >=TH900+m009p > D9200 > HD820 > Z1R > TH900 > D7200. (stock headphones in bold).

The D9200 remains the best overall stock closed headphone I tried, plus it has a lot more chance that pad changes will improve it considerably. It has much less problems than the stock D7200 and will sound better with more pads. This time I didn't have the impression it was bright, it just had more sparkle than the D7200 (but less than the TH900).

The D7200 was more natural in the treble IMHO (the m009p improved the D7200 treble quite much). I start to wonder whether would it make sense to move the D9200 cups on the D7200 and vice versa? Maybe it would be mutually beneficial change... will see that later.

Sound stage: the Fostex TH900 + m009p has the biggest and widest sound stage, closely followed or matched by the D7200+m009p, followed by the HD820 (!), closely followed by the D9200+m009p, followed by the D9200. So no, the HD820 is not any more the king of sound stage in closed headphone world.

Bass impact and extension: the D7200 + m009p have the nicest kick and extension (a bit bass-heavy for 20-30 Hz thumps), though the D9200 could be considered "more controlled" or "more dry" (hard to tell without comparative distortion measurements, both sounded clean and well defined). IMHO the D7200 was well controlled but more rich than the somewhat more dry (or cleaner?) D9200 bass. The D9200 was not bass-heavy, just neutral/linear, extended and clean. The HD820 had enough bass, neutral and clean like the D9200, but the Denons kicked harder and were more extended. The Fostex TH900 kicks even harder and perhaps even cleaner, but more in the midbass range (having about the same extension). Again, IMHO the TH900+m009p is the ultimate movies/gaming headphone, unless one wants somewhat less treble, in which case the D7200+m009p is the best.

Midrange: to my preferences definitely the D7200+m009p is the best (more body with cello and piano), closely followed by the D9200+m009p and the stock D9200. The HD820 is a bit thin sounding in the midrange, but not bad. The Fostex midrange is not as thin, but more distant, creating a peculiar coloration which in comparison is quite noticeable, but after getting used to it, just sounds with slightly more colors, life and more inner light to the music than the Denons.

Treble: again the D7200+m009p is my preference, though here more people may actually prefer the D9200 (stock or with the m009). Certainly the D9200 emphasizes details more clearly, but I like more the harmonic structure of the D7200+m009p.

Hey, it seems the closed headphones quest is stabilizing. I'd say the D9200 has everything a good headphone needs, plus potential to grow with better ear pads as the stock pads damp/hide quite much from its potential. Depending on the need for treble level/detail, the D7200 would be enough IMHO, but only with the modded Stax 009 pads - sorry, no easy options here.

 

[zolkis]

I'm looking to upgrade to the D7200, D5200 or the Atticus depending on which is a better all-rounder for games, movies and music ( should do well enough for all kinds of music ). The Key words here are FUN, SMOOTH with no harshness or sibilant across the whole spectrum, BIG soundstage ( at least good enough for gaming and for a closed HP ) and QUALITY BASS.

There are no easy choices here. You need to listen yourself to both the D7200 and D5200. I like the D7200 more, but there are people who prefer the D5200. They don't have particularly big sound stage. Bigger sound stage and better bass/treble is possible with other pads, read through this thread more thoroughly. You could add the Denon D7000, TH-X00 (Massdrop) versions and the Fostex TH900 to the list. All sound like you want it but at different extent and with other compromises. There is no way skipping personal assessment. All these headphones scale well with better amplification and source.

 

[Xlaw]

There are no easy choices here. You need to listen yourself to both the D7200 and D5200. I like the D7200 more, but there are people who prefer the D5200. They don't have particularly big sound stage. Bigger sound stage and better bass/treble is possible with other pads, read through this thread more thoroughly. You could add the Denon D7000, TH-X00 (Massdrop) versions and the Fostex TH900 to the list. All sound like you want it but at different extent and with other compromises. There is no way skipping personal assessment. All these headphones scale well with better amplification and source.

I understand and it's frustrating, because there's literally no way whatsoever to listen to any of these headphones. If I was able to find a D7000 without an exaggerated price online I would've bought it no question. And the Fostex TH900 is way too expensive for a blind buy with a reputation of a somewhat hot treble ( It's very expensive either way ). Mad Lust Envy in his guide described the D7000 as one of the most fun sounding headphones he's ever heard without sacrificing much competitive aspects for gaming. That's why I'm trying to look for a similar fun smooth sound or something that does these things better under 1000$ bracket with minimal amplification like an atom or a liquid spark. TH-X00 I don't really know how it would compare to the others in Bass Quality.

And I actually have gone through this thread multiple times and I'm still confused, lol. But from what I read, I like what you said about the D7200 and that if I didn't find the sound fulfilling, I can just change the pads to make it sound better ( though I have no idea how to mod or change pads ). As for the prices, I'll be buying from amazon which has the d5200 listed for £411.60 and the d7200 for £549.00.
Curious as to how the TH-X00 Massdrop versions compare though.

Anyway, thank you for replying and the helpful posts on this thread.

 

[zolkis]

But from what I read, I like what you said about the D7200 and that if I didn't find the sound fulfilling, I can just change the pads to make it sound better ( though I have no idea how to mod or change pads ). As for the prices, I'll be buying from amazon which has the d5200 listed for £411.60 and the d7200 for £549.00.
Curious as to how the TH-X00 Massdrop versions compare though.

The Massdrop TH-X00 versions all sound with bigger stage, bigger bass and hotter treble than either Denon. The Ebony versions were the most linear IIRC. The TH900 was still better to my ears.

The D7000 sounded a bit too dark for my taste, but it's sweet and very smooth. Will benefit from pads change as well. There are countless mods to it.

Some of the D7200's might sound honky at times (including mine) - that's why I started modding it. But I've heard samples that didn't seem to have that problem and it's easy to fix it by spending a few bucks on Creatology foam and padding the cups from the inside. It has less treble than other bio-cellulose drivers. The Stax 009 (modded) pads fix all those issues and make it sound much bigger. So I don't really recommend the stock D7200 unless you spend another 120 pounds on the Stax 009 pads...

The D5200 is less of a risk, probably safer buy.

Consider checking the used gear forum in this space, maybe you get a good buy.
https://www.head-fi.org/forums/headphones-for-sale-trade.6550/

 

[markrw]

The Massdrop TH-X00 versions all sound with bigger stage, bigger bass and hotter treble than either Denon. The Ebony versions were the most linear IIRC. The TH900 was still better to my ears.

The D7000 sounded a bit too dark for my taste, but it's sweet and very smooth. Will benefit from pads change as well. There are countless mods to it.

Some of the D7200's might sound honky at times (including mine) - that's why I started modding it. But I've heard samples that didn't seem to have that problem and it's easy to fix it by spending a few bucks on Creatology foam and padding the cups from the inside. It has less treble than other bio-cellulose drivers. The Stax 009 (modded) pads fix all those issues and make it sound much bigger. So I don't really recommend the stock D7200 unless you spend another 120 pounds on the Stax 009 pads...

The D5200 is less of a risk, probably safer buy.

Consider checking the used gear forum in this space, maybe you get a good buy.
https://www.head-fi.org/forums/headphones-for-sale-trade.6550/

Have you compared stock 009 pads on the D7200 vs stock D7200?

 

[zolkis]

Have you compared stock 009 pads on the D7200 vs stock D7200?

Yes, I have compared the stock 009 pads vs modded 009 pads on the D7200 - and a dozen other headphones.
The modded 009 pads sounded better, or much better on all, except for - curiously - the Stax SR-009 itself which was a mix (more relaxed with better bass kick vs more neutral and somehow more true to the timbre), so I reverted it on that.

 

[markrw]

Is it difficult to remove the foam from the 009 pads? Do I have to remove the stitching, take out some foam, then sew it back up?

 

[zolkis]

Guys, read back a few pages in this thread. The 009 pad mod is trivial and reversible. No sewing. The leather is not sealed, it can be folded out, revealing the foam. You remove the lower white ring. FWIW you can also try with the stock 009 pads.

The the D7200 pads mod is difficult (sewing involved) and is irreversible. Less money on stake, though.

 

[sebna]

Why would somebody even consider buying 200 USD pads for 550 USD HPs and then mod the pads even further is beyond me but each to its own.

The pads will not change those HPs into something they are not.

 

[zolkis]

If one paid 160 to 200 USD for cable change, that would be regarded as "normal", acceptable investment. Yet these pads make an order of magnitude bigger difference than cable change. Each with their own, indeed.

 

[Camper1995]

If one paid 160 to 200 USD for cable change, that would be regarded as "normal", acceptable investment. Yet these pads make an order of magnitude bigger difference than cable change. Each with their own, indeed.

I would argue that paying 200$ for a simple cable is not "normal" but I understand what the point is. I always prefer to sell the headphone if I'm not happy with it rather than invest infinite amount of money into modding it, some things just can't be fixed without completely redesigning them.

 

[zolkis]

Why would somebody even consider buying 200 USD pads for 550 USD HPs and then mod the pads even further is beyond me but each to its own.
The pads will not change those HPs into something they are not.

The obvious point of the previous post was that those pads (120 euros here, plus your 15 minutes hobby-work) will not only improve, but make the D7200 (here 800 euros) sound better in every single respect than the 2400 euros HD820 (I imagine for most people) and in most areas better than the 1600 euros stock D9200 (I imagine for the majority of people). That is what the D7200 truly are, not what they are confined to with the stock pads. Total savings: 700-1480 euros (not that I imagine D7200 buyers were looking for the HD820, but anyway, sound is sound, price is price).

The improvement ratio on the D9200 is less (because they are much better in stock form), but it makes them better than the HD820 even in sound stage. Total saving: 780 euros.

Moreover, you can keep those modded 009 pads and try with your other headphones as well. Brace for impact. Or else put back the (still sticky) white ring and sell them to Stax owners at less than 50 bucks loss.

Of course, being skeptical is a healthy and recommended habit, especially if the wonder-gospel comes from one guy. Well, that's the risk.

At least I made these findings public and everyone can check them on their own and eventually report the findings. Members in my area can come and check it out in person (on their own or my headphones).
I am done with pushing arguments .

 

[Groot Geluid]

The obvious point of the previous post was that those pads (120 euros here, plus your 15 minutes hobby-work) will not only improve, but make the D7200 (here 800 euros) sound better in every single respect than the 2400 euros HD820 (I imagine for most people) and in most areas better than the 1600 euros stock D9200 (I imagine for the majority of people). That is what the D7200 truly are, not what they are confined to with the stock pads. Total savings: 700-1480 euros (not that I imagine D7200 buyers were looking for the HD820, but anyway, sound is sound, price is price).

The improvement ratio on the D9200 is less (because they are much better in stock form), but it makes them better than the HD820 even in sound stage. Total saving: 780 euros.

Moreover, you can keep those modded 009 pads and try with your other headphones as well. Brace for impact. Or else put back the (still sticky) white ring and sell them to Stax owners at less than 50 bucks loss.

Of course, being skeptical is a healthy and recommended habit, especially if the wonder-gospel comes from one guy. Well, that's the risk.

At least I made these findings public and everyone can check them on their own and eventually report the findings. Members in my area can come and check it out in person (on their own or my headphones).
I am done with pushing arguments .

I have not had a chance to hear these new Denon headphones yet, but have a lot of experience with 2000, 5000 and 7000 versions as well as the th-900/600 and the massdrop th-x. All of these proof the high potential of the design and the option to change the characteristics with damping and changing pads. This is a worthwhile option and Zolkis can be thanked for his many explanations of what his experiences are.
My preference is the th-900 with some Lawton damping on the driver, but nothing more (Dekoni sheepskin pads that are extremely comfortable), and for real critical work I use the Th-600 with Lawton driver damping and damping of the Magnesium cups, as well as using the frenestrated pads from Dekoni. Very clean and open sound. Looking forward to hearing these new Denons though.....