[VintageAudio]

Awesome, thanks for your feedback. I am also curious how you like the Topping A90 vs. THX 789

I was super excited about the THX 789, tried many times to buy it and finally got in on the 3rd run of it on mass drop. The way the technology was described got me super hype - I wanted a powerful, big dollar sounding amp at a budget price for my HiFiman Susvaras.

My daily driver day/amp at the time as the ADI-2. I had also tried driving my headphones via speaker outputs on a vintage NAD 315 BEE which sounded great and tried the Monoprice Liquid Platinum. I found the platinum to be too shouty with the Susvara's.

Anyhow, with the long wait and all the hype surrounding the THX 789, I was kinda let down. In my setup, I found the THX 789 to lack body. I used both the XLR outputs and the 1/4". People say that it shouldn't make a difference because the 789 is not truly balanced, but I perceived better sound quality out of the XLR. However, I preferred the internal amp on the ADI-2 more. Seemed to have more body to me with the Susvaras. Could be purely psychological, cause I wanted the 789 to be good, but I when listened on it I got a strange tin can type of feeling. I don't know if its some echo or some ringing, but it didn't sound that good to me. Sure it was was clean, and crispy, but like I said, I felt it lacked body and emotion. Maybe the ADI-2 amp is not as transparent, might even be coloured, but I preferred the sound from it over the 789.

To me the Topping A90 was a significant improvement over the 789. So good. Did not have the weird hollow tin can feeling I got with the 789, more body, and just as clean.

I also prefer its features. I like the little toggle switches. In a setup where you switch between speakers and headphones its brilliant. The gain switch makes it easy for me to leave my dial in the middle and just flip the switch depending if I am on headphones or speakers. I feel it gave me the big $ performance at a reasonable price.

I'm catering all my audio gear decisions around my Susvara's so I totally understand if other people with other headphones might have different experience than me with their components. I did find the A90 slightly bright, with time with more use it seemed to calm down a bit. Anyhow that's my 2 cents.

 

[legcramp]

I was super excited about the THX 789, tried many times to buy it and finally got in on the 3rd run of it on mass drop. The way the technology was described got me super hype - I wanted a powerful, big dollar sounding amp at a budget price for my HiFiman Susvaras.

My daily driver day/amp at the time as the ADI-2. I had also tried driving my headphones via speaker outputs on a vintage NAD 315 BEE which sounded great and tried the Monoprice Liquid Platinum. I found the platinum to be too shouty with the Susvara's.

Anyhow, with the long wait and all the hype surrounding the THX 789, I was kinda let down. In my setup, I found the THX 789 to lack body. I used both the XLR outputs and the 1/4". People say that it shouldn't make a difference because the 789 is not truly balanced, but I perceived better sound quality out of the XLR. However, I preferred the internal amp on the ADI-2 more. Seemed to have more body to me with the Susvaras. Could be purely psychological, cause I wanted the 789 to be good, but I when listened on it I got a strange tin can type of feeling. I don't know if its some echo or some ringing, but it didn't sound that good to me. Sure it was was clean, and crispy, but like I said, I felt it lacked body and emotion. Maybe the ADI-2 amp is not as transparent, might even be coloured, but I preferred the sound from it over the 789.

To me the Topping A90 was a significant improvement over the 789. So good. Did not have the weird hollow tin can feeling I got with the 789, more body, and just as clean.

I also prefer its features. I like the little toggle switches. In a setup where you switch between speakers and headphones its brilliant. The gain switch makes it easy for me to leave my dial in the middle and just flip the switch depending if I am on headphones or speakers. I feel it gave me the big $ performance at a reasonable price.

I'm catering all my audio gear decisions around my Susvara's so I totally understand if other people with other headphones might have different experience than me with their components. I did find the A90 slightly bright, with time with more use it seemed to calm down a bit. Anyhow that's my 2 cents.

Awesome thanks for the feedback; I am currently looking into experimenting with these newer amps in the price range compared to my original Burson Soloist.

 

[Baten]

I was super excited about the THX 789, tried many times to buy it and finally got in on the 3rd run of it on mass drop. The way the technology was described got me super hype - I wanted a powerful, big dollar sounding amp at a budget price for my HiFiman Susvaras.

My daily driver day/amp at the time as the ADI-2. I had also tried driving my headphones via speaker outputs on a vintage NAD 315 BEE which sounded great and tried the Monoprice Liquid Platinum. I found the platinum to be too shouty with the Susvara's.

Anyhow, with the long wait and all the hype surrounding the THX 789, I was kinda let down. In my setup, I found the THX 789 to lack body. I used both the XLR outputs and the 1/4". People say that it shouldn't make a difference because the 789 is not truly balanced, but I perceived better sound quality out of the XLR. However, I preferred the internal amp on the ADI-2 more. Seemed to have more body to me with the Susvaras. Could be purely psychological, cause I wanted the 789 to be good, but I when listened on it I got a strange tin can type of feeling. I don't know if its some echo or some ringing, but it didn't sound that good to me. Sure it was was clean, and crispy, but like I said, I felt it lacked body and emotion. Maybe the ADI-2 amp is not as transparent, might even be coloured, but I preferred the sound from it over the 789.

To me the Topping A90 was a significant improvement over the 789. So good. Did not have the weird hollow tin can feeling I got with the 789, more body, and just as clean.

I also prefer its features. I like the little toggle switches. In a setup where you switch between speakers and headphones its brilliant. The gain switch makes it easy for me to leave my dial in the middle and just flip the switch depending if I am on headphones or speakers. I feel it gave me the big $ performance at a reasonable price.

I'm catering all my audio gear decisions around my Susvara's so I totally understand if other people with other headphones might have different experience than me with their components. I did find the A90 slightly bright, with time with more use it seemed to calm down a bit. Anyhow that's my 2 cents.

I agree with your comparison between 789 and A90. My experience is the exact same. Topping did really good with A90.

 

[sajunky]

Anyhow, with the long wait and all the hype surrounding the THX 789, I was kinda let down. In my setup, I found the THX 789 to lack body. I used both the XLR outputs and the 1/4". People say that it shouldn't make a difference because the 789 is not truly balanced, but I perceived better sound quality out of the XLR. However, I preferred the internal amp on the ADI-2 more. Seemed to have more body to me with the Susvaras. Could be purely psychological, cause I wanted the 789 to be good, but I when listened on it I got a strange tin can type of feeling. I don't know if its some echo or some ringing, but it didn't sound that good to me. Sure it was was clean, and crispy, but like I said, I felt it lacked body and emotion. Maybe the ADI-2 amp is not as transparent, might even be coloured, but I preferred the sound from it over the 789.

Interesting post. It is known that 789 is vastly overhyped. No, it doesn't create echo not ringing. It is well made. It is a nested feedback technology that makes it sound like that. The other amp you tested use the same technology, so differences are very little. To get the most from Pegasus (and a likes: Denafrips, Audio GD, Soekris) you need a quality non-feedback Class A or a tube amp. 789 or A90 are only good for DS converters, where the output is averaged, smoothed out.

 

[VintageAudio]

Interesting post. It is known that 789 is vastly overhyped. No, it doesn't create echo not ringing. It is well made. It is a nested feedback technology that makes it sound like that. The other amp you tested use the same technology, so differences are very little. To get the most from Pegasus (and a likes: Denafrips, Audio GD, Soekris) you need a quality non-feedback Class A or a tube amp. 789 or A90 are only good for DS converters, where the output is averaged, smoothed out.

Hey Sajunky - thanks for the insights. I tried to describe my experience as best as I could, but of course couldn't technologically explain the cause of what I thought I was hearing. I think most end-users are very susceptible to the hype and try to convince themselves of an experience because that's what others tell them they should be hearing. It's reassuring that you have some type of plausible explanation for what I was hearing and that it wasn't just me. I assume the nested feedback you're referring to is the loop that does the noise subtraction thing that makes the amp measure well. Sounds like that tech is not without side-effects.

Ultimately, to get the most out of my gear, the proper pairing is the key. I found my RME ADI-2 hooked up to my Vintage Marantz with KEF speakers is the bomb! The precision of the ADI-2 and KEFS, match well with the warmer, tubey sounding Marantz so well.

It just so happens that the Billie Amp I spoke of connected to the pegasus and A90 is a tube amp, which would align with your explanation.

My point is this - many engineers/designers/vendors will have a lot of marketing hype about their tech and what it is "supposed" to do to the sound. At the end of the day, you have to listen to it and be your own judge. Their intended purpose/promise of their tech only matters if it translates to results you can experience for yourself. Without the results, you better better be good at hypnotizing yourself that it does in fact sound good so you can rationalize your purchase. In other words - placebo.

 

[sajunky]

I assume the nested feedback you're referring to is the loop that does the noise subtraction thing that makes the amp measure well. Sounds like that tech is not without side-effects.

Yes, it is what I meant.

Thanks for your report, I don't quote everything, but I fully agree with everything what you say. Did you test Pegasus and Denafrips in NOS mode? It is expected to unlock even more natural sound (required even better amplification). Oversampled modes bring perception of more details, it makes a DAC more similar to DS converters without losing much of a natural R2R sound, many people prefer it. However Denafrip users report very little difference between OS and NOS, I'd like to hear what your impression.

 

[VintageAudio]

Yes, it is what I meant.

Thanks for your report, I don't quote everything, but I fully agree with everything what you say. Did you test Pegasus and Denafrips in NOS mode? It is expected to unlock even more natural sound (required even better amplification). Oversampled modes bring perception of more details, it makes a DAC more similar to DS converters without losing much of a natural R2R sound, many people prefer it. However Denafrip users report very little difference, I'd like to hear what your impression.

In my experience with the Ares II, Pegasus and other dacs I have owned, the NOS mode has always sounded best to my ears. The effect is always subtle, but in NOS mode I feel the music sounds more natural and unrestrained. With NOS, I find notes have more refined edges, and can fully blossom and fade. With the oversampled modes I find the music a little muddier, smoothed out and notes truncated. More the filters make the sound more digital or processed, might be how I describe it. I find most of those filters pretty subtle. I have to play certain music sections over and over and swap back and forth to be able to articulate the differences in what I hear, but most certainly I always prefer NOS.

 

[sajunky]

^This. I fully agree, couldn't find better words, thanks.

 

[Baten]

Interesting post. It is known that 789 is vastly overhyped. No, it doesn't create echo not ringing. It is well made. It is a nested feedback technology that makes it sound like that. The other amp you tested use the same technology, so differences are very little. To get the most from Pegasus (and a likes: Denafrips, Audio GD, Soekris) you need a quality non-feedback Class A or a tube amp. 789 or A90 are only good for DS converters, where the output is averaged, smoothed out.

I disagree entirely. A good R2R DAC pairs extremely well with a super linear feedforward/THX amp. The result is a really precise amplification with a more coloured DAC signal. I think this work very well, not saying non-feedback or tube can't sound good too but I think your statement here is way too black and white.

 

[tuyen]

agree with your experience with NOS mode and OS modes.

ive owned Soekris diy dac and borrowed a friends Holo 2 Spring Lvl2 dac and had same experiences. Do hope the Pegasus (eta 30/11/2020) is in same sq level as the holo2 spring! The soekris was not as refined and dynamic(esp in the bass).

also before considering ordering the pegasus, did think about the musical paradise mp-d2 mk3 tube dac. But steered towards the pegasus as didnt want to go down rabbit hole of playing with mods and 'possible upgrades' of different tubes/capacitors.

 

[Baten]

ive owned Soekris diy dac and borrowed a friends Holo 2 Spring Lvl2 dac and had same experiences. Do hope the Pegasus (eta 30/11/2020) is in same sq level as the holo2 spring! The soekris was not as refined and dynamic(esp in the bass).

Let us know.. I've very curious to see Pegasus VS holo spring 2

 

[sajunky]

I disagree entirely. A good R2R DAC pairs extremely well with a super linear feedforward/THX amp.

"Super linear speedforward" is a marketing bull, there is some patent is involved, but what really works is a nested feedback architecture, similar to A90. It produce clinical or sterile sound, but not musical. It may work for some ears, but not for those who prefer a natural sound, as is considered a sound degradation.

 

[Baten]

"Super linear speedforward" is a marketing bull, there is some patent is involved, but what really works is a nested feedback architecture, similar to A90. It produce clinical or sterile sound, but not musical. It may work for some ears, but not for those who prefer a natural sound, as is considered a sound degradation.

Ok agree, -but- natural DAC sound + sterile amplifier sound = still mostly natural. IMO. I like it, you might not I guess.
I think musical + musical adds up into a syrupy warmpoo mess. Not my cup of tea.

 

[tuyen]

Received Pegasus DAC few hours ago. Listening for past hour. Initial impressions. Very good. Big open soundstage but imaging is still very precise. Will leave it on to run in for the recommended 200-300hrs.

I have a Gustard U16 Ddc tha I will try pair with the pegasus via I2S to see if brings any improvements as well

 

[]eep]

Ok agree, -but- natural DAC sound + sterile amplifier sound = still mostly natural. IMO. I like it, you might not I guess.
I think musical + musical adds up into a syrupy warmpoo mess. Not my cup of tea.

i think you are rehashing very old stereotypes here. I don't like using bad or ill-defined analogies since they tend to steer you off in the wrong way of thinking.

What you do here is characterising certain types of distortion with colorful metaphores while describing the lack of other distortion with similar but different ones. Then you go mixing those metaphores as if you are cooking and seasoning a soup.

You say 'musical' as in 'rolled off and with some 'nice' harmonic distortion', 'natural' as some sort of 'rightness' or balanced sound and 'sterile' as bright, unforgiving, glaring etc. When in fact a hifi system is supposed to reproduce music, like in our natural surrounding and do so without added dirt or discoloration. Therefore musical, natural and clinical should all point in the same direction; ie faithfull reproduction of sound without adding or taking away anything.

So to the point: adding 'natural' to 'sterile' (adding IMD to lack of IMD) does not make it ok (0+1 is still 1). You still end up with a bad kind of distortion. Musical² in the case of dac +amp does not mean extra rolled off and does not mean excess of HD.

I don't say this to 'correct' you (maybe rethink) but to prevent these very old stereotypes (or should I say 'monotypes' since they are from the mono era, that's how old) from going on and on and on and... Modern amplifiers are razor straight in their frequency range, so are dacs and harmonic distortion is so low it's irrelevant.

In my experience timing issues have become much more important now. Errors are ALWAYS cumulative. They NEVER disappear by 'turning a knob' like in the old days with capricious frequency responses. Therefore the old adagios don't apply anymore.