DENAFRIPS 'ARES' R2R discrete ladder DAC - close up view

[whitedragem]

After weeks of reading reviews forums and along with many emails I have decided to go with the Ares ii. I’ll like to thank Alvin for taking the time to quickly answer my question, along with the member of this forum who offered help.
Bought this mainly to be used in my iem system. I feel it with the Xduoo ta20 and Mest mk ii it should have a nice warm sound signature and be different than the dac I am using.
I‘m also going try it on my home system, have a feeling it fit right in with my older collection of gear. I believe good gear last, so home system it Denon AVR 3803 7.1 klipsch speakers with a svs subwoofer. I mainly use a Pioneer 563a sacd/dvda player as a source with home system so I’m curious to hear what the Ares ii using hi rez source sounds vs the Pioneer.
Now that the hard choice been is made it’s just finding some descent cables to hook it all up.

​

you will want to defeat all processing on that AVR (I had it and would NEVER use it for audio (snob alert))..
if you use the all channel stereo mode, your best bet to keep all your speakers engaged, it would be a waste of the ares…
to that amp, whilst cables might make a subtle difference (or a noticable difference if you spent ‘big money’), the point of a nice external amp is lost.
the problem with AVR sound is that they achieve ‘good sound’ by using lots of speakers and DSP control and RE-EQ for their soundfield.

Two channel setups care about room placement of the individual speakers..

Back in the nineties when AV processors started to come to market, and for the decade that followed, flagship parts could easily be ‘upgraded’ by using the OLD stereo amplifier in the users setup to keep the front left and right functioning..
In a setup like that, playing with cables might be more worthwhile.
As someone who uses an Anthem processor and powered using flagship surround amplifiers (as power amps) (double+ the cost of the Denon you are using), I find that setup ‘unlistenable’ for two channel audio (nicely mastered stuff)(fine for ‘mass market/made for radio compressed recordings etc),..

I say this simply because I have heard the Denafrips in a nice two channel system (second hand parts <$2K total budget(not including DAC) which also including a dedicated new CD transport), and the location of some test track samples were placed beyond any DAC I had tested prior.
Given the best surround amps wouldn’t put out 1/3rd the soundfield depth of ‘that basic two channel system’ (using an entry level stereo amp), what ‘richness’ and layering and ‘benefit‘ you would gain from a nice DAC, would be mostly lost to surround amp and likely a room untuned for two channel speaker setup.

Save money on the cables (and I AM a ‘cable guy’).
Don’t get me wrong.. I completely agree with notion of old parts are great value(eg the SACD player you use was fantastic way to get into the format),.. but I have an old processor -a Proceed AVP2 that is more hifi in ‘dolby surround’, than the Denon is with lossless ‘trueHD..
The Denons best trick is the Re-Eq (subwoofer is TIGHT with the main speakers and awesome steering), but none of that circuitry can be engaged in the AVR, otherwise you are simply doing an Analogue to Digital pass on your nicely Digital to Analogue’d sound (from the Denafrips).

It is still an exceptional DAC, and literally it threw sounds 80feet back in the soundstage that, prior I had only heard 50-60 feet back ‘at best’.. (and it makes every instrument sound natural, at all volume levels, and doesn’t run out of steam when the full band kicks in (like some DACs)).
Grab the Denafrips, sure, but I wouldn’t ‘go crazy’ on nice cables for in into the AVR.. (beyond a basic price point).. again,.. I say this as a person who has many sets of nice cables,.. but AVRs just aren’t a good investment for DACs and nice cables. (Seperate processors and power amps are a ‘different story’, but need to be big cost to match even fairly budget ‘2 channel’ kit.).

Having recently rotated out a Yamaha Aventage amp (or a range of flagship surround amps from ‘earlier’ in history) as doing main duty in my two channel setup (my valve monos need a service), it amazed me how basic budget two channel amps just ‘did better’. (ie a Denon DRA-700ae)
The benefit of having an AVR in place was being able to look at the speaker re-eq plots and moving my main left right speakers until they achieved ‘close to flatline’ without needing to re-eq (and then swapping in a ‘stereo amp’!).

not trying to be bearer of bad news (the Denon AVR sounds musical if you have no other reference,.. just trying to save ye come coin on cables..)

edit: vs the Pioneer DVD player; if you gave up the ‘multi channel input’ on the surround receiver(best way to possibly bypass internal decoding/ADC) it will blow it away.. as would a NuForce IconHD -a budget DAC approx a decade old)

 

[sajunky]

^^^THIS

 

[Ufanco]

you will want to defeat all processing on that AVR (I had it and would NEVER use it for audio (snob alert))..
if you use the all channel stereo mode, your best bet to keep all your speakers engaged, it would be a waste of the ares…
to that amp, whilst cables might make a subtle difference (or a noticable difference if you spent ‘big money’), the point of a nice external amp is lost.
the problem with AVR sound is that they achieve ‘good sound’ by using lots of speakers and DSP control and RE-EQ for their soundfield.

Two channel setups care about room placement of the individual speakers..

Back in the nineties when AV processors started to come to market, and for the decade that followed, flagship parts could easily be ‘upgraded’ by using the OLD stereo amplifier in the users setup to keep the front left and right functioning..
In a setup like that, playing with cables might be more worthwhile.
As someone who uses an Anthem processor and powered using flagship surround amplifiers (as power amps) (double+ the cost of the Denon you are using), I find that setup ‘unlistenable’ for two channel audio (nicely mastered stuff)(fine for ‘mass market/made for radio compressed recordings etc),..

I say this simply because I have heard the Denafrips in a nice two channel system (second hand parts <$2K total budget(not including DAC) which also including a dedicated new CD transport), and the location of some test track samples were placed beyond any DAC I had tested prior.
Given the best surround amps wouldn’t put out 1/3rd the soundfield depth of ‘that basic two channel system’ (using an entry level stereo amp), what ‘richness’ and layering and ‘benefit‘ you would gain from a nice DAC, would be mostly lost to surround amp and likely a room untuned for two channel speaker setup.

Save money on the cables (and I AM a ‘cable guy’).
Don’t get me wrong.. I completely agree with notion of old parts are great value(eg the SACD player you use was fantastic way to get into the format),.. but I have an old processor -a Proceed AVP2 that is more hifi in ‘dolby surround’, than the Denon is with lossless ‘trueHD..
The Denons best trick is the Re-Eq (subwoofer is TIGHT with the main speakers and awesome steering), but none of that circuitry can be engaged in the AVR, otherwise you are simply doing an Analogue to Digital pass on your nicely Digital to Analogue’d sound (from the Denafrips).

It is still an exceptional DAC, and literally it threw sounds 80feet back in the soundstage that, prior I had only heard 50-60 feet back ‘at best’.. (and it makes every instrument sound natural, at all volume levels, and doesn’t run out of steam when the full band kicks in (like some DACs)).
Grab the Denafrips, sure, but I wouldn’t ‘go crazy’ on nice cables for in into the AVR.. (beyond a basic price point).. again,.. I say this as a person who has many sets of nice cables,.. but AVRs just aren’t a good investment for DACs and nice cables. (Seperate processors and power amps are a ‘different story’, but need to be big cost to match even fairly budget ‘2 channel’ kit.).

Having recently rotated out a Yamaha Aventage amp (or a range of flagship surround amps from ‘earlier’ in history) as doing main duty in my two channel setup (my valve monos need a service), it amazed me how basic budget two channel amps just ‘did better’. (ie a Denon DRA-700ae)
The benefit of having an AVR in place was being able to look at the speaker re-eq plots and moving my main left right speakers until they achieved ‘close to flatline’ without needing to re-eq (and then swapping in a ‘stereo amp’!).

not trying to be bearer of bad news (the Denon AVR sounds musical if you have no other reference,.. just trying to save ye come coin on cables..)

edit: vs the Pioneer DVD player; if you gave up the ‘multi channel input’ on the surround receiver(best way to possibly bypass internal decoding/ADC) it will blow it away.. as would a NuForce IconHD -a budget DAC approx a decade old)

Excellent points figure Ares ii wouldn’t be used much with home setup since it more set up for TV viewing. It’s something I will least play around with. The Denon does has a pure direct mode that turns off all video related circuits and digital processing and only uses the front two speakers. Not the greatest I know but should be fun to mess with. Have some blue Jean rca cables that should work in this setup. I used a sound meter to set up surround system so will adust just the 2 fronts speakers in direct mode.

Decided I‘m going just go with @roderickvd suggestion for xlr cables for iem setup. I‘m and still debating on what usb b to usb c cable to buy. I have a lot of usb c to c so might just buy a adapter.
Ares ii has already shipped so I’m getting excited. I was pleasantly surprised to see the pre shipment test that where performed, it’s awesome to see a company test a item thoroughly before shipping. My experience is most electronics failures happen at first use, glad to see this wouldn’t be a concern.

 

[whitedragem]

Excellent points figure Ares ii wouldn’t be used much with home setup since it more set up for TV viewing. It’s something I will least play around with. The Denon does has a pure direct mode that turns off all video related circuits and digital processing and only uses the front two speakers. Not the greatest I know but should be fun to mess with. Have some blue Jean rca cables that should work in this setup. I used a sound meter to set up surround system so will adust just the 2 fronts speakers in direct mode.

Decided I‘m going just go with @roderickvd suggestion for xlr cables for iem setup. I‘m and still debating on what usb b to usb c cable to buy. I have a lot of usb c to c so might just buy a adapter.
Ares ii has already shipped so I’m getting excited. I was pleasantly surprised to see the pre shipment test that where performed, it’s awesome to see a company test a item thoroughly before shipping. My experience is most electronics failures happen at first use, glad to see this wouldn’t be a concern.

Sweet; you’ve “got this”. (direct mode and ‘consideration to the two speakers’ (placement))

The break in on the Ares II is fantastic- I was fortunate enough to hear it at a friends house for the first XX hours.. literally the difference between the ‘thirty minute mark’ to ‘an hour and thirty minutes’ was incredible (hearing the decay on phase shifting guitars in concert halls) and the extension of the audience .. by the four hour mark the Ares II was happily placing the audiences echos (/applause) behind us.. Whilst I would argue with so many internal components that DO need some life on them to ‘gain their legs’, the expected time for audio improvements is ‘weeks’.
(my friend confirmed that too, with revisits to specific recordings at the month mark (and beyond) having gained absolute detail and improved the output quality…

Opening the box is ‘only the start of the journey’… let that baby cook (simply leave it turned on) for the initial month or so… (of course even better would be to have a DAP or ‘some digital source that can be left on’ to keep it well fed wink.gif)

(and not that I am apart of your present cable discussion- but yes, your existing RCA cables sound (ahem, pun not intended) like they should do the task well.
(and XLR cables, even at budget price points do ‘very well’, so anything better is just AWESOME!!)

 

[Ufanco]

Sweet; you’ve “got this”. (direct mode and ‘consideration to the two speakers’ (placement))

The break in on the Ares II is fantastic- I was fortunate enough to hear it at a friends house for the first XX hours.. literally the difference between the ‘thirty minute mark’ to ‘an hour and thirty minutes’ was incredible (hearing the decay on phase shifting guitars in concert halls) and the extension of the audience .. by the four hour mark the Ares II was happily placing the audiences echos (/applause) behind us.. Whilst I would argue with so many internal components that DO need some life on them to ‘gain their legs’, the expected time for audio improvements is ‘weeks’.
(my friend confirmed that too, with revisits to specific recordings at the month mark (and beyond) having gained absolute detail and improved the output quality…

Opening the box is ‘only the start of the journey’… let that baby cook (simply leave it turned on) for the initial month or so… (of course even better would be to have a DAP or ‘some digital source that can be left on’ to keep it well fed wink.gif)

(and not that I am apart of your present cable discussion- but yes, your existing RCA cables sound (ahem, pun not intended) like they should do the task well.
(and XLR cables, even at budget price points do ‘very well’, so anything better is just AWESOME!!)

Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.

https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KRPNK1...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083QMZ9L...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Other thoughts is a adapter
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Female-P...to+printer+male+adapter,electronics,59&sr=1-4

 

[whitedragem]

Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.

https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KRPNK1...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083QMZ9L...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Other thoughts is a adapter
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Female-Printer-Male-Adapter/dp/B09XB7G7W9/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2Y1WO7ER44W63&keywords=USB+C+Female+to+Printer+Male+Adapter&qid=1656210114&refinements=p_72:1248879011,p_36:1253503011&rnid=386442011&s=electronics&sprefix=usb+c+female+to+printer+male+adapter,electronics,59&sr=1-4

Just making sure I am up to speed; this is FROM an iPad air (4)?
So does this require the Camera Connection Kit dongle anyway? (at which point using an adaptor and one of your existing cables would probably be a way forward)
I’d probably recommend an Apple TV (they are $50 second hand in my local market for version 1-3) and an AppleTV 4K was 100$(aus) last week (second hand, sure)…
wouldn’t there be some method where you could use the iPad to request music to play via the Apple TV…
The version one TV (I bought four years ago for ‘a few quid’ (with remote) has fibre optic output and I have little doubt you could find a method (for not much more than the price of some cables you may be considering) that would allow a more usable setup (eg iPad on couch/on table next to listening position that remote controls your setup/allows preselecting music etc)

I generally do MY ABSOLUTE BEST to avoid USB as a digital transport.
by price point COAX outperforms TOSLINK which outperfroms USB (in aussie dollars, last time I checked the ratio was roughly $50 coax=$150 toslink=$400 USB cable).

Having heard the Denafrips, the jump to a $100 glass fibre optic cable (budget belkin brand part I believe), from a near equally priced ‘brandname’ part was noticeable.. (blacker background/ slightly more warmth in tonality of instruments) possibly some staging cues, but we didn’t do A/B fast switching and long testing.. it was better and there wasn’t much point wasting time on the tests.. (enjoy the music, yes?) (for those thinking cables don’t matter, the owners bias would have been against the findings, and the differences were ‘subtle’)

I used COAX input and a music player and did on the fly DSD conversion..
I’d almost encourage simply adding a FiiO BTA30 and using it to feed your stereo..
My quick test of the Denafrips when fed from the BTA30 blew my mind!

true story:
set the BTA30 up using power from the home ADSL modems USB jack (literally the worst possible power source), hooked up using a TOSLINK cable that cost $2 (can came with two adaptors), and fed from an android phone probably doing sample rate conversion 44khz to 48khz) using a non hi res codec…
now anyone who has history with me knows that I ‘don’t do compressed music’; I grew up through the time period that MP3s evolved from low bitrate and had sound cards since the eighties.. I am sensitive to the differences of the FM synthesis chips as they evolved in the early nineties (freaking subtle stuff), and ’enjoyed’ the evolution of Minidisc compression etc..

I ran my given test track for soundstage depth and male vocal grittyness/inflection (T J Eckleberg - Two Inches of Darkness (album: Superhydrated)) and the performance BLEW ME AWAY.
The Denafrips playback of the digital feed it was given had more stage depth that any time previous AND the grittyness and inflection in the voice was ‘top notch’; so say the Denafrips is ‘an exceptional piece of kit’ is an understatement.

Naturally I was keen to feed COAX output using a nice cable from a DAP that did ‘on the fly’ DSD conversion; and the Denafrips surely was a step above anything I had hoped..
(and actually took the DSD via COAX like many DACs do not); I do not think the Denafrips a ‘budget DAC‘ that favours USB input..
I’d say - think outside the box and avoid a ‘frankenfurter‘ setup (a cable mass and awkward to use)…

you asked for $0.02 advice.. (given!!)
apols I didn’t help choose a cable, but I say ‘go the adaptor’ (especially if you are using a CCK already)
As someone who feeds an iFi Diablo using some horrific cable jangles with multiple adaptors, (and IS a cable fanatic), you will not suffer any disgrace no matter the option that works..
They should all work ‘well’.

 

[Ufanco]

Thanks again @whitedragem i’m sure I be referring back to this at a later date. I did talk with Alvin at Denafrips before purchasing and he said the iPad 4 air with usb c would work directly connected to the ares ii. So probably just pick up a adapter for now and down the road consider something better.
Switching to something like Apple TV might work guess I’ll try the older roku ultra since I think it has a coax output. Humm now that I think about it I have a Sony TV that uses android OS that might also be a option it has coax and optical outputs.

 

[roderickvd]

Just making sure I am up to speed; this is FROM an iPad air (4)?
So does this require the Camera Connection Kit dongle anyway? (at which point using an adaptor and one of your existing cables would probably be a way forward)

I feed my Ares II from an iPhone through a Camera Connection Kit. I like to use a USB cable with good screening and ferrite beads for noise rejection, preferably on both sides.

I generally do MY ABSOLUTE BEST to avoid USB as a digital transport.
by price point COAX outperforms TOSLINK which outperfroms USB (in aussie dollars, last time I checked the ratio was roughly $50 coax=$150 toslink=$400 USB cable).

Not to start a cable discussion but just to present a different view, this is the USB cable that I'm using. Only downside I find is that it isn't gold plated: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32295185591.html

The Ares II has one of the best USB implementations on the market, which it shares with its bigger brothers, with the one nit that it isn't isolated (more on that later). The interface is asynchronous which means that the DAC processes the audio words in an ideal fashion based off its own clock, regardless of the quality of the input clock. On the other hand, S/PDIF requires the DAC to recover timing from the input signal. As good as that recovery can get, by definition it cannot be as good as asynchronous operation and will have elevated jitter, if only by a small amount on a good implementation. Subjectively one may prefer one or the other of course.

Now the one nit on the Ares II is that the USB interface isn't properly isolated, and source noise could find its way into the DAC. In this regard optical link would be superior even over coax, but again may cause higher jitter caused by optical conversion back and forth on top of the S/PDIF clock recovery. That's why I did my absolute best to use asynchronous USB as a digital transport, and stuck a TOPPING HS01 between the CCK and Ares II for isolation. Problem solved!

 

[NehPets]

Funny you mentioned the break in period it’s one of the reason I decided to buy new. Personally hearing the improvements over time is a enjoyable part of the journey for me. Right now just trying get a good set of cables, in time I’ll circle back and look at higher end cables. I will appreciate them more then than now if that makes sense.
Not finding a lot of choice when come‘s to usb b to usb c cables. Here are a few i’m considering, if anyone else has suggestion on these or others I would appreciate any help or thoughts you can offer.

https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Oyaide-Type-C-Class-Cable/dp/B07ZRDH5C4/ref=sr_1_3?crid=142H4Q346IYHG&keywords=NEO+Oyaide+d++USB+Type-C+Class+B+Cable&qid=1656209231&s=electronics&sprefix=neo+oyaide+d++usb+type-c+class+b+cable,electronics,100&sr=1-3

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KRPNK1...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083QMZ9L...olid=3ELHM0NIPEJ2I&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Other thoughts is a adapter
https://www.amazon.com/USB-Female-Printer-Male-Adapter/dp/B09XB7G7W9/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2Y1WO7ER44W63&keywords=USB+C+Female+to+Printer+Male+Adapter&qid=1656210114&refinements=p_72:1248879011,p_36:1253503011&rnid=386442011&s=electronics&sprefix=usb+c+female+to+printer+male+adapter,electronics,59&sr=1-4

Audioquest Forest works absolutely fine.

 

[aroldan]

Now the one nit on the Ares II is that the USB interface isn't properly isolated, and source noise could find its way into the DAC. In this regard optical link would be superior even over coax, but again may cause higher jitter caused by optical conversion back and forth on top of the S/PDIF clock recovery. That's why I did my absolute best to use asynchronous USB as a digital transport, and stuck a TOPPING HS01 between the CCK and Ares II for isolation. Problem solved!

The TOPPING is a must for the Ares or is it required only when there's actually an audible distortion/noise problem?

 

[whitedragem]

The TOPPING is a must for the Ares or is it required only when there's actually an audible distortion/noise problem?

We are arguing the semantics of subtle subtle things here…

Anyone insisting that USB is ‘the way’ based on science/logical thinking (I understand about USB Async, is in part why I have a Grace m903), and then goes to a lot of effort/spending to improve it… ‘sound logic’. (there are a lot of devices that can aid digital transmission - iFi audio have quite a few, I have a few of their USB regen parts, and have always wanted their SPDIF reclocker…)

Probably best for users to ‘check their own systems’; I can happily confirm that the Ares II isn’t a super budget DAC that exists because of how cheap implementing USB audio now is…(it also performs well on the traditional digital transmission methods)
The semantics are that most digital transmission methods have issues,.. and like any great political debate ‘throwing dirt on the ‘other parties’ weaknesses’ doesn’t actually make oneself clean.

The reason I avoid USB audio is simple testing on ‘nice’ kit… (budget kit just about always favours USB and is no doubt where most of the forum talk in favour of USB comes from)
Depending on any given piece of hardwares’ design, any given input method may sound better (test your own setup, PLEASE!)

Case in point; when using an iFi Diablo, the COAX / toslink input sounds way better than the USB input when I feed from an external device with exceptional clock sources.
USB DACs, when they have better clocks than the transport/source, will generally do better via USB.. (and if we look at the evolution in USB PLL locks etc.. there is reason it is always being spoken about)..

Solid old COAX, whilst might not seem logically ‘a great method’ to many users, generally pushes ‘pretty well’ (Your mileage may vary)..
I gave an audible ratio of price to performance a couple of posts up,.. being ~$50 COAX = ~$150 toslink = ~$400 USB .. but given most work on some silly fallacy that digital is transmitted digitally (over USB it is a wavelength, with peaks and trowels that have to align accurately in order to be interpreted as digital ‘on/off’ (one/zero), and is why USB cable quality VERY MUCH MATTERS (qualifier being: into setups with enough capability to resolve the differences).. those high/low points, “eyelets” of info can easily get ‘out of sync’ becoming misread, where zero becomes a one or vice versa… sure error correction can make up some of it, but absolute audio information is easily lost (bass note definition, transient timings, the microdetails that give a stage its depth etc)

I have ‘nice‘ USB cables, and regen units and am happy ‘doing the dance‘ of bouncing USB through multiple links (if need be), but I also run USB direct from battery isolated DAPs that internally have much consideration and design given to power isolation into particular circuits -=I highly recommend a FiiO M11+ as an exceptional transport,.. for the small coin outlay it near equals a Questyle QP1R, the best DAP I have ever used for transport duties, with the FiiO M11+ having the advantage of more output types (COAX and USB) as well as ability to do ‘on the fly DSD‘ conversion if called for=-..

USB using simple adaptors and generic cables sounds fine. (stop reading here, save getting ‘knickers in a twist’)
COAX flogs it in many situations, especially when we consider the sound quality achieved ‘by price point’.

Digital cables have rapidly reachable ‘diminishing returns’ and are not generally worth worrying about with budget kit.
The Denafrips Ares II is ‘good enough’ (when fed into systems costing VASTLY MORE THAN IT) to consider ‘playing with digital cables’.
The subtle differences can be HUGE to those who lived through the nineties and ‘super clock mods’ and ‘pure transports’ (/high end transports) etc..
The sorts of sound quality differences that can be had are quite noticable.

The best example I hold to is;
a friend using a generic USB cable wanted to try/‘see for themself’ if a USB cable might alter the sound they were experiencing (m2Tech Young DAC with matching ‘battery box’).. the system was a nice two channel system feeding from a decent transport (and had resolving speakers) and an owner with ‘keen ears’..
Hooking up three borrowed cables, believing USB cables wouldn’t really do anything (digital being, erm, ‘digital’)…
the three pricepoints they had borrowed were $50, $500 and $1500 USB cables…

The wife in the kitchen could pick the $1500 cable (easily).. and this wasn’t a ‘clever hans situation with ‘raised eyebrows‘ telegraphing when to put the foot down’ (a classic experiment involving a horse that could do ‘math’(the horse couldn’t do math if the owner didn’t know the answer..))
Whilst all three price points resolved different, and increasingly ’better’ sound… my friend settled on the $50 cable.. (it was a ‘no brainer’ upgrade) - the higher price point parts were not commensurate with the total system price, and, as an actuary, my friend was able to ‘do the math’.

I have found that Toslink cables need be a fair higher price margin (over COAX) to sound equal.. It is true that TOSLINK has two more conversion steps to push the optical feed.. (and receive it)
USB is a horrible cable method and bus to move audio on.
UAC 1 was atrocious, sure.. and UAC 2 allowed much better targeting/packeting of information /vs interruptions and in theory, given that the bus was not built for audio, stepped around some issues in a busy Universal Serial Bus environment… (ie a mouse moving didn’t have to get in the way of timing for audio)
But, celebrating USB audio is ‘going a little too far’ in praise of a solution to a problem that is incremental at best.
We can champion all the improvements to it as they happen (Asycn and Phase Locking Loops etc)..
but it would be like saying a skate board isn’t a good family vehicle for going to the beach or shopping…
And then saying, but this one has seats…
This one has seats and a motor….

It will never be I2S over a dedicated cable method designed for digital audio etc..
I am not sure what methods exist for ‘good digital audio’; last I read there were A LOT OF COMPROMISES in the market and we have all grown accustomed to using them.

Truth is; if it works for you.. use it. If it sounds better for you, USE IT (budget being reasonable).
If it is easy for you to implement, use it.
If it takes two hours to rotate a few options in place and check for yourself….. (don’t buy into the coolaid)

My experience with digital (having fed world class transports into high end DACs) is that I will reach for COAX first everytime. (to my scientific mind it is the worst option, but to my emotioally resolving brain using my ears as sensory input, it somehow ‘wins out’ everytime. -albeit not on ‘budget’ DACs (built around using USB, cause, ‘easy’/cheap))

The Denafrips does have a good USB implementation true.
I have a skateboard, with seats and a motor.. psst hey buddy ‘wanna go to the beach?’

 

[Ufanco]

So much great advice, spent the evening reading and watching you tube videos about the Ares ii. I even watched some videos of tweaking tips for the ares ii.
Figure I’ll post them here for all to enjoy, I’m only the messenger and just kinda curious to hear your thoughts on them. Some of the comments felt it helped but mighta just been the placebo affect.

 

[whitedragem]

So much great advice, spent the evening reading and watching you tube videos about the Ares ii. I even watched some videos of tweaking tips for the ares ii.
Figure I’ll post them here for all to enjoy, I’m only the messenger and just kinda curious to hear your thoughts on them. Some of the comments felt it helped but mighta just been the placebo affect.

Yep;; but that second video is an huge cost in time and money… (!) (vs the first video)

just do it…

certainly good tricks to employ..
Nice when people share knowledge..

A lot of the ‘more premium’ hifi parts I have come to love have sub chassis and ‘exotic materials’ (sub chassis).. and copper screws etc.
I think if you want to tunethe sound more towards the high end and remove some sibilance, you need use a silver washer..
jokes aside; good tips.
The feed back given in the first video could be, and most likely is, from break in (warm up) of the parts involved.. But it is true that these sorts of tricks make a difference.
IS why centrally mounted drive units in disc spinners (like the oppo behind Mike in the first video)..
Also why quite a few threads on head-fi talk about dampening tapes to put on top of caps inside their gear…

Good finds.. cheers. and kudos for sharing.. good people (the both of you!)

 

[sajunky]

Anyone insisting that USB is ‘the way’ based on science/logical thinking (I understand about USB Async, is in part why I have a Grace m903), and then goes to a lot of effort/spending to improve it… ‘sound logic’. (there are a lot of devices that can aid digital transmission - iFi audio have quite a few, I have a few of their USB regen parts, and have always wanted their SPDIF reclocker…)

Well, USB is based on science, but when you are trying to improve it, you do break a science. A science is in asynchronous data delivery. Watch out to not break it!

You mention mouse movements generating noise, just on a side note. This is an example when USB port is not working in asynchronous mode. Even more, it is a sign of a serious problem in your PC. And additionally it is an indication that your player is using system mixer. All are critical faults.

Assuming your system is configured properly, a newer PC's have simplified USB architecture, having only one USB root hub. There are faster hubs 3.0+, but everything goes through a single pipe, one misbehaving port can interrupt data stream. Now you say "I have gaming PC", 1200W power supply, 16 core CPU. Well, it makes even worse, as power rails generate so much noise that such computer radiate so much EMI in your entire room that it is impossible to get rid of.

Much better for audio use is an old laptop, based on Core2 Duo with non-UEFI BIOS and integrated graphics. From the new PC's Intel mini PC, HP Probook Mini or similar HTTP constructions of other brands are much better for audio purpose. They have dedicated short power rails, not half meter long multiple lose cables. Or get a dedicated network streamer where power related noise is kept low and stop complaining on USB.

USB is not designed for audio purpose, true. A main problem is that it use DC signaling, so it is difficult to implement galvanic barrier. You mentioned reclockers. Jitterburgs, reclockers only cause problems and do not serve purpose. Do we have asynchronous data delivery, right? But audiophiles buy everything.

The best way to implement galvanic barrier is to convert USB to I2S or S/PDIF. Problem is that Ares do not have I2S port. S/PDIF Coax gives some protection from ground loops, but SQ depends on the clock purity of a source clock (not a clock inside DAC). And this clock is exposed to the source noise, right? This is a problem, it is why we have a DDC. Asynchronous data delivery is broken in the place where conversion is made. If such conversion with galvanic isolation were made inside DAC, it would be possible to extend asynchronous data delivery directly to R2R ladder, using the high quality internal clock. Science is not bad, but breaks easily. And when it happen, we have multiple solutions, most of them do not work.

 

[whitedragem]

@sajunky ‘yes’ (glad you are raising awareness of what is involved with USB, and I would say you speak with rosey coloured glasses, and WANT USB to be ‘all that’..)

For me, happy to not debate the things I have learned along the way, I use a nice simple FiiO M11+ as a transport.
It easily bested a dedicated Cambridge CD transport, it has COAX & USB outputs (we can BOTH be happy!) and the clock chips are great/have power isolation/circuit board isolation (and a design intent for the total product to do these tasks well), shielding and short path layouts etc..
It improved DACs at the Ares II quality level (vs their internal clocks, even ‘nice ones‘ with femtosecond precision) and the COAX sounds vastly superior (into nice DACs).. even if using cheap adaptors on an ‘average’ COAX cable.

The time to implement one of these in a system? (!priceless)

They can stream/they can remote play/they run apple music (or any app); I like (onkyo) HF Player and doing ‘on the fly DSD‘ conversion (at high quality 5.6mhz (or 6mhz)) and the Ares II laps this up.. (over COAX!)
(or you can use USB)
as I have already said; probably worth letting end users test their own systems to see (/‘hear’) what works best.
The COAX input is the best I could want.. from a cheaper chain (don’t need to use super nice USB cables to get ‘close to equal’ digital tranmission quality) (but that is leaving the elephant in the room out of the discussion- clearly you believe that ANY USB cable is ‘good enough’?!)

For a budget DAC, I am ‘all for USB’ (if it sounds better).. but for a nice DAC, I’d certainly encourage testing.. (the feedback I get via PM is ’thankyou’ (COAX was a massive upgrade))
I have no horse in this race.. I can do both and happily do the one that works best (for me)

In the limited testing I have done. the Ares II was exceptional via COAX input, and the TOSLINK was noticeably inferior, but then the TOSLINK cable wasn’t three times the cost of the COAX cable, in my experience, generally needed for roughly equal sound. The owner of the DAC didn’t want the USB connected. (take from that what you will)