[]eep]

Th

I tried it (hiby, exclusive hq USB mode) using the Kindle fire. It stuttered, played tracks at double speed, refused to play, etc. The only way I was able to stop the stuttering was to enable FIXED output sampling rate. Even then, 44.1 sampling just stuttered. Anything else (eg 48k, 88.2k, 96k, 176.4, 192k) plays just fine. So it seems that bit perfect just won't work..... the denefrips dac shows the selected sampling rate correctly, it just Messes up the sound. So my question with hiby is: does sampling at a multiple of 44.1 (eg 88.2) give me better quality with less artifact compared to upsampling flacs to 48k?

That is strange behaviour. Did you start using it while it was still scanning your library? It should have no trouble at all reading flac. I only get a hickup sometimes while decoding an iso in dst (compressed dsd) so flac 44 should be easy sailing. Sometimes, or should I say oftentimes, rushing in to using an app doesn't work. I get it with my laser too. I kill the app and restart and it works fine. Sometimes reinserting the usb helps too.

You can try using upsampling to fixed rate. 44 to 48 is no use, only makes it worse. The others won't really improve anything but just try it and see what you think. My logical and emotional preference is non oversampling but I don't think it sounds bad. But I'm not saying you should too. Just listen and compare it to real life (live) sound (if you can find a natural sounding recording without processing).

 

[]eep]

I've just been told on another forum that I shouldn't use both the RCA and XLA outputs at the same time, as it will split the power and degrade the signal. Is this true? I've always had an amp plugged into each output simultaneously (tube amp into RCA and SS amp into XLR). As a test, I just tried unplugging the unused amp while listening to music - and I didn't notice any change to the sound.

It's not that big a deal. It has to do with the resistors for the output impedance. If you were to use both simultaneously you would only have half the value and get a different sound and distortion on peaks (a bit like using low impedance speaker outputs). Usually a dac has an opamp or buffer on the output so it wouldn't make a difference. But Denafrips tries to maximize the sound quality and wants to keep the signal path as simple as possible.

And since no one (ie 99 of the users doesn't) uses both at the same time but just wants the choice to use single ended or balanced, it is a valid option. I use both outputs but either/or. If you want to use both, use a (passive pre) amplifier with relais. So if you turn off the amp or switch input, the line is cut off. Or split the A and B line of the XLR. Or split of a second line with an extra resistor (what I use for the subwoofers).

 

[halo26]

Deleted

 

[sajunky]

I can't really be confident that it would work because after all Hiby was supposed to work at 44.1k as well..... it may just be an issue with the tablet refusing to properly transmit anything lower than 48k.
In any case, given a choice, if you start with 44.1k, do you think that upsampling to 48k produces more or less artifact/artificality than Upsampling to 88.2. Theoretically, 88.2k adds more bits, but interpolation between the original data seems more straightforward than upsampling to 48k...... so pick your poison (or MY poison)..... which upsample is worse, 44.1 to 48? Or 44.1 to 88.2?

I can't judge in this bizarre case, but it is worth to try. If the same happens with two different source devices, it might be something wrong with your Ares.

Generally upsampling do not increase information, but more likely introduce digital artifacts. Intersample overloads by example, it will depend on a music.

 

[halo26]

Neutron works without a hiccup.(Theres a free trial for a few days).

Still weird that hiby was able to do all kinds of upsampling, but wasn't able to get the kindle tablet to play bit perfect at 44.1 without stuttering.

On a (slightly) different topic, I've read different things about dithering. If audio engineers say (somewhat convincingly) that at 44.1khz dithering merely changes artifacts into random and therefore less noticeable noise, what is the argument against it? Doesn't dithering just correct an inherent artifact of 44.1khz encoding?

Or does the dac automatically dithering the incoming data?

 

[sajunky]

On a (slightly) different topic, I've read different things about dithering. If audio engineers say (somewhat convincingly) that at 44.1khz dithering merely changes artifacts into random and therefore less noticeable noise, what is the argument against it? Doesn't dithering just correct an inherent artifact of 44.1khz encoding?

Or does the dac automatically dithering the incoming data?

Well, it is important question. Dithering is an important, the last step in music production. When you downsample or reduce bit-depth you introduce quantization errors. Our ears can "hear through the noise", it means we can recognise details with amplitude below noise floor level. However a noise of quantization errors is correlated with music. It create upleasant harshness. Dithering add pseudo-random noise with a level slightly higher than quantization noise, it turns up that quantization errors spectrum is decorelated and allows our ears to hear through the noise. A dynamic range is increased, CD has a maximum 96dB, with dithering it can be increased to a maximum 115-117dB. Of course if parameters are chosen inadequate, dithering will bring negative effects.

A real ilustration of dithering. Place a comb horizontally between eyes, keep it steady. The area between 'teeths' is visible clear and sharp, but behind teeths is completely obscured. Now move a comb left and right, when speed is increasing you can see the entire image. All image is blurred, but areas previously obscured can be seen. It is how dithering works.

There are areas where dithering is required. However in my opinion DACs should not add any dithering. While dithering can improve ladder linearity and look better in measurements, it is a cheap way to deal with ladder errors. Some brands offer dithering as an option, but I didn't hear any single report claiming that dithered sounds betther. Those brands that use dithering by default should be avoided.

 

[halo26]

Well, it is important question. Dithering is an important, the last step in music production. When you downsample or reduce bit-depth you introduce quantization errors. Our ears can "hear through the noise", it means we can recognise details with amplitude below noise floor level. However a noise of quantization errors is correlated with music. It create upleasant harshness. Dithering add pseudo-random noise with a level slightly higher than quantization noise, it turns up that quantization errors spectrum is decorelated and allows our ears to hear through the noise. A dynamic range is increased, CD has a maximum 96dB, with dithering it can be increased to a maximum 115-117dB. Of course if parameters are chosen inadequate, dithering will bring negative effects.

A real ilustration of dithering. Place a comb horizontally between eyes, keep it steady. The area between 'teeths' is visible clear and sharp, but behind teeths is completely obscured. Now move a comb left and right, when speed is increasing you can see the entire image. All image is blurred, but areas previously obscured can be seen. It is how dithering works.

There are areas where dithering is required. However in my opinion DACs should not add any dithering. While dithering can improve ladder linearity and look better in measurements, it is a cheap way to deal with ladder errors. Some brands offer dithering as an option, but I didn't hear any single report claiming that dithered sounds betther. Those brands that use dithering by default should be avoided.

Got it. Practically speaking, if I use a player such as Neutron to play 44.1KHz flac files bit-perfect through the Ares Dac (--> Asgaard 3), should I therefore turn on dithering (in Neutron) to reduce artifacts? (If so, I think that technically means it's no longer bit-perfect, but my goal is best quality classical music experience, not semantic excellence).... Or do the dithering formulas reduce musical quality in other ways?
And if dithering shoudl be done, , what sort of dithering (there re about 8 choices works best?)

 

[sajunky]

Got it. Practically speaking, if I use a player such as Neutron to play 44.1KHz flac files bit-perfect through the Ares Dac (--> Asgaard 3), should I therefore turn on dithering (in Neutron) to reduce artifacts? (If so, I think that technically means it's no longer bit-perfect, but my goal is best quality classical music experience, not semantic excellence).... Or do the dithering formulas reduce musical quality in other ways?
And if dithering shoudl be done, , what sort of dithering (there re about 8 choices works best?)

There is reduction of quality if dithering is applied twice. Dithering is already applied on all new CD's. Adding dithering twice do not bring additional benefits, it only deteriorate sound. Early CD's were recorded without dithering. There is no definitive cut off date, engineers in some studios have learnt about dithering earlier or later or it us a matter of upgrading their equipment. Having such option on the DAC is helping in such case. It is a malpractice in my opinion if a dithering is used for randomizing ladder errors. With 24-bit music/ladder resolution low bits add a sufficient random noise to our ears and distortion energy is much smaller, no dithering is required.

Various dithering options functionality is the same as with digital filtering, a minor personal preferences will play role. In a few scientific papers I read, a triangular function is typically used for research.

 

[Powermankw]

Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.

 

[elnero]

Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.

I use a Bluesound Node 2 via coax to my Ares II. No complaints about sound from me. Sounds better than USB from MacBook Pro.

 

[dougms3]

I use a Bluesound Node 2 via coax to my Ares II. No complaints about sound from me. Sounds better than USB from MacBook Pro.

In the past when I've used optical vs usb, I noticed there was alot more bass via optical but the usb was more resolving.

I'm curious what is your experience of the sonic differences between usb and coax?

 

[dakchi]

Well I see I'm not wrong wondering about streaming. I can use bluesound (?) but don't like comments on SQ. Any decent simple roon endpoints with digital out? I use roon on my other devices.

Give Ifi Zen stream a try. The sound is much more clean thanks to the embedded purifier. The software is not as good as Bluesound though, but they improve it with regular updates. At the end, what matters is sound and Zen Stream is very good for that

 

[Powermankw]

Give Ifi Zen stream a try. The sound is much more clean thanks to the embedded purifier. The software is not as good as Bluesound though, but they improve it with regular updates. At the end, what matters is sound and Zen Stream is very good for that

That's what I've heard, but I don't need a dac and analog out, I need digital out to Ares (or any other DAC) Blue sound has digital out. My Matrix Audio Mini-1 has every possible connection, but no digital out. Seems the only route DACs care about is USB from computer. I would rather go over network which goes back to streamer, or roon endpoint with digital output.

 

[dakchi]

That's what I've heard, but I don't need a dac and analog out, I need digital out to Ares (or any other DAC) Blue sound has digital out. My Matrix Audio Mini-1 has every possible connection, but no digital out. Seems the only route DACs care about is USB from computer. I would rather go over network which goes back to streamer, or roon endpoint with digital output.

Ifi Zen Stream does not have analog out because it doesn't have a dac like Bluesound Node. It is a pure streamer that has only SPDIF and USB out. I have tried it with Ares II and Pontus II and the result is excellent. It is day and night compared to Bluesound. I was not expecting that changing the streamer would have such impact on sound. However, if software is important for you, then ZS is not for you. No other streamer can compete with Bluesound on software

 

[squadgazzz]

Give Ifi Zen stream a try.

Just avoid stuff like this. To save money, it would be WAAAAAAY better to buy Pi2AES or at least DigiOne. It would also save a lot of your nerve cells