[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is quite certain that we do not know everything about the ear/brain and how it perceives sound. All of the phase anomalies and FR deviations of which you speak are present in transducers to a far greater extent than in the electronics which drive those transducers.

I totally agree with you.

This does not mean, however, that the distortions in a particular transducer will completely mask distortions introduced upstream. I've found that some do, some don't.

My standard of comparison is a live performance of acoustic instruments and voice. That is the ideal to which I aspire to bring my reproduction chain.

If you're talking about reproduction of synthesized or even amplified music, all bets are off.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vinyl sez: "You may shout if you wish, the fact remains that double blind testing is an effective way to separate reality from imagination." Most of what Vinyl is calling "reality" IS imagination, however! "Imagination" is not an inferior realm. I know a lot of you here are threatened by imagination, probably because you can't see it, measure it, or, most importantly, control it. And control is all-important to people for whom the imagination is inaccessible or distant. I hear differences between amplifiers. If that's my imagination, good. That makes me powerful. It makes me a shaper of my own world, of my own "reality." And of other worlds as well - see my profile. It makes me a passionate human being. It makes life worth living, it gives life contours and nuances, it inserts magic and mystery into what would otherwise be simply a "meat machine" body. In other words, imagination is what makes people human. It's soul. I daresay that the bottom line is, when you get right down to it, envy. Envy of those who possess imagination and, quite frankly, envy of those who possess more money or credit. Vinyl has sadistically started a thread in which he tries, in a sterile academic manner, to justify or prove, defensively, his lack of imagination and either his lack of finances or else his innate tightwaddedness. He wants us to experience life as flatly as he does. Meanwhile, some of us have wine, women, and song. Those of you who are young need to take a long look at what you want to be at 60 years old. Do you want to be exciting, complex, attractive, passionate? Or a bean counter, an accountant, an old fart in a white lab coat, somebody as obsessed in your old age with taking tests as you were in middle school? Meawhile, I'm powerful. I can make tubes sound warm and transistors sound cold, even beyond the fact that they do in subtle ways. I can make silver faceplates sound detailed and copper cable sound euphonic. I can imagine that my cat loves me, the winter wind is warm, and that death is not the final chapter. I am music.

That was powerful.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I totally agree with you. This does not mean, however, that the distortions in a particular transducer will completely mask distortions introduced upstream. I've found that some do, some don't. My standard of comparison is a live performance of acoustic instruments and voice. That is the ideal to which I aspire to bring my reproduction chain. If you're talking about reproduction of synthesized or even amplified music, all bets are off.

I've been reading the Orthodynamic roundup thread and have bought a pair of Yamaha HP-3 orthos and intend to mod them in the manner described on that thread. I'm intrigued by the technology which seems to combine some of the qualities of dynamic and electrostatic drivers. I'd never heard of them before coming to HeadFi although I was familiar with the principle as Magneplanars, EMIT tweeters and ribbon tweeters.

I've already taken one side apart, taken pics of the drivers and posted them.

Also, if you look at the Computers as a Source forum I've posted both pictures of my vinyl ripping rig and my original Victrola as well as a video of the Victrola playing a shellac record.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am music.

From your profile:

Biography:
writer and painter

I understand what you have said now much better...it is powerful. One can not have music without imagination.

Profiles can provide much context for what people say and how it is said. I am very glad that you supplied that context.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif That was powerful.

Yes, personal insults are always so powerful.

 

[JadeEast]

There is no reason that objectivist and subjectivist elements cannot come together and create very good products.

Certainly nobody would send a quality amplifier or any other product out to market without listening to it first. Pretending that audio reproduction is purely a romantic pursuit without any basis in hard core electrical engineering and based solely on subjective creativity is just as incorrect. It is the dogmatic fundamentalism on both sides that drags down the whole level of the argument.

Attacking objectivist points of view because they don't smell the roses or appreciate the true beauty is just as vain as the objectivist view point that subjective are deluding themselves and are fools.

Science and technology have imagination, creativity and passion we put it in there as a product of our minds,dreams and hands.

I really do not see why there has to such a fundamental split between the two camps, there is enough wine women and song for every one.

 

[JadeEast]

Considering that it is doubtful that anyone is going to conduct a double blind test could we drop the subject and take this back to elements that can effect the qualities of an amplification device. I linked to some thing earlier that may have been missed in the poop slinging. A piece by Rod Elliot about some factors that influence the sound of an amplifier at the end of the article he has a link to another article where he proposes a way to measure the qualities of an amplifier. It seems a very interesting approach to me and would be interested to see what others think.

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

 

[Hi-Finthen]

VP, your ignorance of others personal experience is the first cause of any hurt feeling you may have. In fact you expected just that in your first post.

I thought the post by greggf was quite eloquent in explaining what you may be missing with your math... Whereas the math maybe correct, perhaps, your analysis just doesn't add up. That's the point, and who is fooling whom...

 

[SysteX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif For me it's not personal, which is where I differ from a lot of you.. [snip] About the only thing I have noticed is that at least one poster on this thread is a mod, but I couldn't tell you to save my life who it is without going back and looking and I don't care enough to do that.

I think at some point you'll come to realize that an online forum is an inherently social community--even though there is a thinly disguised veil of anonymity. I think part of the unfriendly welcome here has been due to your impersonal style; it's simply difficult to read your online "body language", if you will. Please, this is not an insult; merely an observation.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, personal insults are always so powerful.

If you feel I've personally insulted you in any way, I apologize. Let us continue our discussion.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you feel I've personally insulted you in any way, I apologize. Let us continue our discussion.

My comment was regarding your statement that greggf's post was "powerful".

No apology necessary, but thank you anyway.

 

[kwkarth]

Hey folks, let's knock off the personal insults ok? This can be a great discussion that everyone can benefit from. How about it huh?
Thanks,
kwkarth

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif -80 + 30 = -50 So the difference is 30 dB decimal ratio=10^(dB/20) [...poorly formatted post trimmed] Why do you care what I do for a living? You misspelled hypocrisy..

-50dB * -30db = -80dB. Note the minus in -30. When making an assertion of mathematical fact (or any fact), it's good to make sure it's meaningful enough to be falsifiable.

Was it really that hard understanding my post because of a spelling error? If you've recovered from all that mental exertion, maybe you can actually respond to all the structured lettering known as "English" that surrounds that spelling error. Only if you have the time, ofcourse. I wouldn't want to keep you from your work, which must be very important for a man so knowledgable as yourself.

Getting back to the point, I think DBT is not ideal in all circumstances. For example, it takes me about 3 weeks of relaxed listening to get an idea of the the subtler qualities of a particular amp.

Addendum:
I disagree that the distortion of transducers are at least 1%. See here; the 650 has 0.01%. Whether they mean total, harmonic or intermodulation distortion I don't know, but it's most likely harmonic. In that case, IMD will probably be very close to that value as well, and I can say from experience that IMD, even at the 0.01% mark, is very easily audible. Similarly, Grado's flashship products are specced at having 0.05dB matching, which means a maximum difference between left/right of 0.01V per volt. Yet, when playing a mono frequency sweep on my GS1000 it is very, very obvious that the sound swings between left/right at varying frequencies.

My point is, just because a number seems low on a spec sheet, it doesn't mean we can't hear it, and it doesn't tell you the whole story on how it will relate back to hearing.

 

[hiisinux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Getting back to the point, I think DBT is not ideal in all circumstances. For example, it takes me about 3 weeks of relaxed listening to get an idea of the the subtler qualities of a particular amp. Addendum: I disagree that the distortion of transducers are at least 1%. See here; the 650 has 0.01%. Whether they mean total, harmonic or intermodulation distortion I don't know, but it's most likely harmonic. In that case, IMD will probably be very close to that value as well, and I can say from experience that IMD, even at the 0.01% mark, is very easily audible. Similarly, Grado's flashship products are specced at having 0.05dB matching, which means a maximum difference between left/right of 0.01V per volt. Yet, when playing a mono frequency sweep on my GS1000 it is very, very obvious that the sound swings between left/right at varying frequencies. My point is, just because a number seems low on a spec sheet, it doesn't mean we can't hear it, and it doesn't tell you the whole story on how it will relate back to hearing.

hello pseudoscience

first of all how thos grado drivers are matched isnt mentitioned they could be matched for that 0.05db at 100khz or 5hz not mentitioned... so it has no worth... and anyways ild (interaural level differences) is one of contributing factor for spatial sound in headphones...

 

[slwiser]

Oh Well back on the farm...

and

Getting back to my personal favorite subject damping.....

I was rereading a web page by David Berning where he shows that his amp's design make the load appear to be 4000 ohms to the amp and the amp at the same time to appear to have an impedance of 0.6 ohms.

This results in an extremely high damping factor.