[Arniesb]

@jlbrach has a fair point. I don't know what axe you are grinding. That site just trashed the Susvara. Apparently, the Susvara can't handle Harman tuning or Amir's tuning to his maximum listening level therefore is voted as Poor. And he pushed aside the Benchmark amp included in the review in favor of the topping A90.

Same with the Utopia/Clear because Amir couldn't listen to it with the bass cranked up at loud SPL without hitting the driver limit. He didn't like the clearly and obviously Harman tuned ML5909 because it didn't have enough soundstage. The Diana V2 was likewise poorly designed per ASR. But, you can EQ the crap out of $20 Sony headphones and have a high recommendation from him! The list goes on and on.

It's not the objection to measurements or the realization that spending more money doesn't gives necessarily give better sound or results. It's the absolute silly capricious recommendations and arrogance to call something poorly designed because it doesn't meet Amir's SINAD or stock tuning requirements. I'm happy Dan is willing to participate over there to educate those who only focus on cost.

I will gladly pay people like Dan and his company for their products even though they are more expensive. It is ludicrous to compare Sennheiser to DCA only as far as both make excellent products.

ASR focus is on measurements... Susvara failed there terribly! You dont care? move on and enjoy your headphones instead of being upset that Susvara is not perfect. I personaly care about measurements as well as many other people.
People who care about science gonna buy Dan Clark headphones and people who dont care about it might buy Susvara.

Loud SPL measurements are needed im my opinion cause music or movies or gaming soundtracks have sounds that go from 0 to 100.
I watch movies for example much louder than music.

On another topic Merry Christmas to Dan and everyone else!!! Enjoy what you like guys and dont be upset that other crowd exist, both can exist for different kind of people.

 

[Daniel Johnston]

ASR focus is on measurements... Susvara failed there terribly! You dont care? move on and enjoy your headphones instead of being upset that Susvara is not perfect. I personaly care about measurements as well as many other people.
People who care about science gonna buy Dan Clark headphones and people who dont care about it might buy Susvara.

Loud SPL measurements are needed im my opinion cause music or movies or gaming soundtracks have sounds that go from 0 to 100.
I watch movies for example much louder than music.

On another topic Merry Christmas to Dan and everyone else!!! Enjoy what you like guys and dont be upset that other crowd exist, both can exist for different kind of people.

I don't own nor have heard Susvara. Nor am I going to buy them. I'm exceedingly happy with the Stealth.

I just finished reading that thread. DCA performance was directly compared several times. As was ZMF Caldera. Kudos to DCA and ZMF for being voted as worthy.

If you bring up that site and criticize someone based on said site, you should at least understand or acknowledge ASR limitations. People on that thread did.

Rant over. Merry Christmas all.

 

[jlbrach]

the thing I dont understand regarding this silly harmen curve stuff and this childish ASR site is...isnt the harmen curve just another tuning choice as would be the tuning of all the HP's that this amir guy trashes?....

 

[dougq]

the thing I dont understand regarding this silly harmen curve stuff and this childish ASR site is...isnt the harmen curve just another tuning choice as would be the tuning of all the HP's that this amir guy trashes?....

It’s a suggested “curve” with ranges in it that has data in it to back it up as optimal and preferable for most people plus adaptable for preference. It’s not super strict. It’s a general guideline. I would not consider asr childish. I like a place they holds audio companies accountable for their ever increasing in price expensive gear that usually doesn’t perform as well as it should.

 

[OneEyedHito]

It’s a suggested “curve” with ranges in it that has data in it to back it up as optimal and preferable for most people plus adaptable for preference. It’s not super strict. It’s a general guideline. I would not consider asr childish. I like a place they holds audio companies accountable for their ever increasing in price expensive gear that usually doesn’t perform as well as it should.

Crazy thing about art is that it performs as well as you find it to perform to your eyes or ears. I could go on with tastebuds and touch and such but I won’t. Point is music is art, how music sounds to me through X, y, and or z equipment is personal just like my taste in music is to me.

Measurements are good for life safety issues, measurements are good for competitions, measurements are good for building something (which is a place to incorporate them from mfgrs for electronics including audio equipment) and can tell us something relative to how we hear something personally but there are so many factors in how we hear something that measurements don’t hold 25% of the puzzle to me in audio gear. They hold some weight but not near as much as other factors.

So back to the art, I’ve heard bands “perform” that I thought were atrocious but my friends thought they killed it and vice versa. Performance is subjective in art.

 

[dougq]

Crazy thing about art is that it performs as well as you find it to perform to your eyes or ears. I could go on with tastebuds and touch and such but I won’t. Point is music is art, how music sounds to me through X, y, and or z equipment is personal just like my taste in music is to me.

Measurements are good for life safety issues, measurements are good for competitions, measurements are good for building something (which is a place to incorporate them from mfgrs for electronics including audio equipment) and can tell us something relative to how we hear something personally but there are so many factors in how we hear something that measurements don’t hold 25% of the puzzle to me in audio gear. They hold some weight but not near as much as other factors.

These are electronics. So in reality they should perform at a baseline level. Ignoring frequency response graphs which one could argue they have a different preference, the distortion quantity and other performance metrics on a 6k headphone I find unacceptable. That isn't telling people to not like something, but objectively there has to be justification for an expensive electronic, and it doesn't hold up to its end for that premium price it's a no go.

 

[jlbrach]

so let me understand this, the susvara which has been around for 6 or 7 yrs and has been lauded and rated as the best or among the very best by a consensus of reviewers as well as users is all of a sudden a sub par HP because ASR has decided its measurements arent up to par?...do I have it right?...when will topping begin making HP's so we can be told they are the new standard..?...

 

[OneEyedHito]

These are electronics. So in reality they should perform at a baseline level. Ignoring frequency response graphs which one could argue they have a different preference, the distortion quantity and other performance metrics on a 6k headphone I find unacceptable. That isn't telling people to not like something, but objectively there has to be justification for an expensive electronic, and it doesn't hold up to its end for that premium price it's a no go.

I understand needing a baseline of performance and the thd numbers for instance are that, impedance is another and so on. Harman is a preference of some study participants and I get that, my point is giving awards for (panthers with or without heads for instance) based on measurements is pedantic and not at all interesting to my approach to art.

I don’t go to a gallery and judge the type of paint used in the painting, I see how the painting makes me think and feel. I don’t need to know that a high hat sound to you is the same to me, but I need to hear the high hat for my self and see if it makes a sound I can get along with. I know this back and forth has been done many times and I appreciate your polite replies.

Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[SolarCetacean]

It’s a suggested “curve” with ranges in it that has data in it to back it up as optimal and preferable for most people plus adaptable for preference

You're missing a key part of the Harman curve. The original starting point of Harman research was to reproduce in headphones the tonal performance of flat-measuring speakers in a semi-reflective listening room. The result is that following the Harman curve should result in a headphone sounding like flat speakers in a semi-reflective room. Preference comes from the bass and treble shelves which people could adjust to preference, but at the core of the midrange tuning is the goal of compliance with flat speakers.

But if your goal isn't to have headphones sound like flat speakers, then the Harman curve is not relevant. The Harman target is a recipe to get your headphone's tonality to match that of flat speakers for the majority of people, but if you're not going for that sound, then there's no need to follow that recipe.

The Stealth is trying to produce that neutral speaker-style tonality, so it follows the Harman curve and it succeeds at that venture. It sounds very even and neutral as a result. The Susvara was never designed to sound like flat speakers. It was designed (from interviews with Fang Bian) to emulate concert halls. Concert halls by design have lots of resonances; that's how they make a single voice fill the whole space with sound. So if the intended experience when listening to a headphone is to make music sound like it's being played in a concert hall, you shouldn't expect it to measure without resonance. The resonance is why the Susvara sounds open and the Stealth sounds closed in.

 

[theveterans]

Susvara by default does not sound like you’re in a concert hall. On the contrary, it sounds too clean and intimate in presentation on most SS amps that people have resorted to adding tube flavor in order to give it a concert-hall like sound. What people meant by open sound is the evenness in treble extension that it provides and is perceived as open sounding.

DCA Expanse on most setups actually sounds more expansive than Susvara on a non-tube setup if you get past its lack of perceived air/treble extension

 

[plumpudding2]

Guys let's keep the outrage about Amir's Susvara review confined to the Susvara thread..

 

[Daniel Johnston]

Guys let's keep the outrage about Amir's Susvara review confined to the Susvara thread..

Seems like the recent thread postings are more debating Harman vs. Non Harman tuning with the Susvara as an example.

Harman tuning is a guideline and not industry standard. It only encompases what 80% of the tested preferred. If you are spending thousands on a headphone, you'd better demo it first. Period.

 

[OCC7N]

RME Babyface Pro (the non-FS version) drives my Stealth fine. I just brought this baby home, and it's absolutely the best sounding headphone I've ever heard. Easily tops my Audeze LCD-MX4 both imaging and accuracy and I thought that was an amazing headphone in its own right. I do have to be careful because the Harman tuning can exacerbate the "reactive" high pitched tinnitus especially in my left ear if I push it too far.

But all in all it's one phenomenal headphone. It easily stands up to a HifiMan Susvara, I'd imagine it'd stand toe to toe with imaging, but the Susvara is an open headphone though, so maybe a different presentation. But the Stealth is EASILY, SO EASILY in the same league. Beautiful headphone and there is literally not much else to say. My favorite metal bands never sounded so good.

Thanks for this insight. I was worried the Babyface Pro FS could not power the HE1000 Stealth, which to me seems very light power. What other headphones have you tried on it?


EDIT: I might get the UCX II instead to be sure even though I love the design of Babyface and like the XLR/Line input

 

[Tachyon88]

the thing I dont understand regarding this silly harmen curve stuff and this childish ASR site is...isnt the harmen curve just another tuning choice as would be the tuning of all the HP's that this amir guy trashes?....

From what I gather, you have never seemed to actually want to understand what you're criticizing.

 

[jlbrach]

From what I gather, you have never seemed to actually want to understand what you're criticizing.

ok then